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saburnsjax
01-12-2014, 07:27 PM
Hi All~
Long time reader, first time poster. This question is from a 'user' point of view.

We have a bizhub C654e with the FS-534 finisher and SD-511 saddle stitch kit.

We often have a need to do small booklets ... maybe 20-40 "logical" pages (i.e., not more than 10 "physical" pages once the booklet is formatted). We are not talking thousands here, we are talking about a couple dozen here, a hundred there, etc. Mostly for churches having events and memorials.

The dilemma we have is that we like to use 28# paper (105 gsm)... which is considered "Thick 1" on the machine ... but the finisher is only rated for "plain paper" (up to 90 gsm) for the fold/center staple.

When printing b/w, it is no problem, we can "lie" to the printer and tell it that it is plain paper and everything comes out beautifully.

But for color, it is a problem. If I tell the printer it is Thick 1, it will fold but not staple. If I "lie" and tell the printer it is Plain, then the print often does not fuse well, even if I print only a couple of booklets and even if not all of the pages are color (which is usually the case).

I don't see any finishers available for this model that will support this type of finishing, and upgrading to a production printer isn't an option at this time.

Are there any tricks or recommendations I can try? ... that won't void our warranty of course :-)

Mr Spock
01-13-2014, 01:12 AM
check out the fs-535 with the sd-512.

blackcat4866
01-13-2014, 02:05 AM
It's not a good idea to promise the customer that a machine will do something when it won't meet machine specs. It might work for a while, but in the end you'll have to admit that the machine was never designed to do that particular task. Or someone else will have to point out that you promised something undeliverable. There is only one end result. It will bite you in the ass now, or later.

Talk to sales. They'll be able to recommend equipment suitable to the task. =^..^=

saburnsjax
01-13-2014, 04:12 AM
check out the fs-535 with the sd-512.

I checked it out but it looks like the sd512 is also only rated up to 90 gsm for center stapling.

I just can't understand why a color mfp - one that is supposedly high quality - doesn't have a booklet finisher available that can staple color booklets. Or trifold. Seems like 28# paper is pretty standard for regular color copies & prints. It's our minimum for color too.

saburnsjax
01-13-2014, 04:13 AM
Talk to sales. They'll be able to recommend equipment suitable to the task. =^..^=

LOL!! The sales guy is the one who promised that not only could it process color booklets, but it could process them on 100# digital gloss (168 gsm).

Synaux
01-13-2014, 04:37 AM
Although my experience it limited with this particular model, I am surprised the plain paper mode will not work correctly for 28-32#. It works flawlessly with many older models.
There is the possibility that it simply needs to be calibrated to suit the needs of your workplace or it could be malfunctioning


But for color, it is a problem. If I tell the printer it is Thick 1, it will fold but not staple. If I "lie" and tell the printer it is Plain, then the print often does not fuse well, even if I print only a couple of booklets and even if not all of the pages are color (which is usually the case).

When you say its not fusing, do you mean that it is not adhering to the paper and flaking off?
If so, there are some settings in service mode that may help you.

For instance, ask your tech to increase the fuser temperature for plain paper in service mode (I can tell you how, if you want, but you are posting as an end user so I will avoid it for now for your protection...and the machine).
Loosely put, you can think of this setting as forcing the machine to run plain stock as thick 1.
This is something that your provider should at least test for you being that your sales rep seems to blatantly have lied.

Synaux
01-13-2014, 04:43 AM
I checked it out but it looks like the sd512 is also only rated up to 90 gsm for center stapling.

I just can't understand why a color mfp - one that is supposedly high quality - doesn't have a booklet finisher available that can staple color booklets. Or trifold. Seems like 28# paper is pretty standard for regular color copies & prints. It's our minimum for color too.

I think Konica really should beef up their finishers too, but my opinion is as good as a weak fart on a windy day...

saburnsjax
01-13-2014, 04:53 AM
Although my experience it limited with this particular model, I am surprised the plain paper mode will not work correctly for 28-32#. It works flawlessly with many older models.

That has been my experience with my Canon and my Ricoh, both 3-4 years old. Machines I was HOPING to retire by purchasing this one :-)



There is the possibility that it simply needs to be calibrated to suit the needs of your workplace or it could be malfunctioning



When you say its not fusing, do you mean that it is not adhering to the paper and flaking off?

Yes, it comes out where the print is not adhering to the paper and flaking off. I expected that when I put glossy paper in the tray and forgot to click the heavier paper type, but was SUPER surprised when I learned the hard way early on that even when printing simple color documents (no stapling, no folding) I had to select Thick 1 as the paper type or the print would come out flaky and peely. I did show a big old stack of defects to the tech, and he kindly showed me the specs that show that 28# paper is Thick 1.

They did have to adjust the temperature for Thick 3 and Thick 4 when I was having a similar flaking problem with cardstock (that was within spec). They didn't offer to do it in this case.

Synaux
01-13-2014, 04:45 PM
Whats the count on this machine?

It sounds as if you might be forced to make the adjustments yourself (as long as they didn't change the default password) or get something more suitable....

saburnsjax
01-13-2014, 05:02 PM
Whats the count on this machine?

It sounds as if you might be forced to make the adjustments yourself (as long as they didn't change the default password) or get something more suitable....


We've only had it since September, the color count is only at 21K. Our volumes don't justify a production level machine and most of the stuff comes out looking great on this machine. I look forward to seeing what solutions our maintenance team offers. So far only the sales guy has offered a solution, and his solution was to upgrade to the SD-512, which is not a solution.

I can always purchase an off-line booklet finisher which would solve many problems (and which is in fact what I was prepared to do before I bought this machine but of course I listened to the sales guy who promised the world... but we don't have it in writing what he promised because we have negotiated pricing so my bad and nobody else to blame for that). I just wanted to explore my options.

I thank everyone for their advice and quick response!

EarthKmTech
01-13-2014, 05:29 PM
i havent had issues with this engine running ~100gsm paper as plain paper in colour mode. I'd be more suspicious of the paper stock and its finish you are using, just because it says that on the packet doesnt mean thats what it really is...

I allow / disallow papers using a micrometer gauge and a visual inspection, gsm ratings on the pack dont mean jack these days and are even more worthless when they come from specialty paper companies that sell in plain packets.

saburnsjax
01-13-2014, 06:15 PM
i havent had issues with this engine running ~100gsm paper as plain paper in colour mode. I'd be more suspicious of the paper stock and its finish you are using, just because it says that on the packet doesnt mean thats what it really is...

I allow / disallow papers using a micrometer gauge and a visual inspection, gsm ratings on the pack dont mean jack these days and are even more worthless when they come from specialty paper companies that sell in plain packets.


I use Hammermill Color Copy Digital 28# exclusively for regular color printing for all page sizes (letter, legal, 11x17, 12x18). Hammermill lists the paper at 105 gsm on the package. I haven't used a caliper on it to verify.

The fusing problem - or at least I should say flaking, non-adhering problem - has manifested itself on all sizes if I forget to select Thick 1, and in fact is more prevalent on the letter size and legal size paper, regardless of whether I am using the saddle finisher or just straight printing. Right now I have my print driver set to default to Thick 1 for color printing and also set all the trays holding 28# paper to Thick 1 to prevent this problem from happening ... which of course also prevents me from doing any booklet finishing, which is what started the thread :-)

Synaux
01-13-2014, 07:33 PM
I use Hammermill Color Copy Digital 28# exclusively for regular color printing for all page sizes (letter, legal, 11x17, 12x18). Hammermill lists the paper at 105 gsm on the package. I haven't used a caliper on it to verify.


That paper is very good, you shouldn't have any problems with that stock.

methogod
01-14-2014, 10:14 AM
Bump up the temp for plain paper, when you need to...

or if you have 100 or more books, send it out to a bindery, should be .30-.45 cents a book to do all finishing.


Free's you up and makes a much nicer book.


another option - print collated sets with out any finishing....
then feed back though as blank plain sheets - no printing just fold and staple...
set to B&W to save clicks.

its can be tricky and not worth the time to make this work...


Next and final trick is go get a C7000 and start printing production quality...

habik
01-14-2014, 03:11 PM
Sorry to disappoint, but SD-511 will do only Cover Sheet up to Thick 2 and SD512 same as SD- 511 :( have to read the small print in Service Manual and all the * by each detail :) ..I think the finisher is perfectly capable of doing it. So ..I'd suggest as well _ Heat up Custom size paper in Service Mode. When I have more time I'll have look in to it my self, as i potentially may want to use it with one of our clients, who is constantly asking why why why it can't do when the previous machine could:) .

lostTech
02-24-2014, 04:39 AM
Sorry to disappoint, but SD-511 will do only Cover Sheet up to Thick 2 and SD512 same as SD- 511 :( have to read the small print in Service Manual and all the * by each detail :) ..I think the finisher is perfectly capable of doing it. So ..I'd suggest as well _ Heat up Custom size paper in Service Mode. When I have more time I'll have look in to it my self, as i potentially may want to use it with one of our clients, who is constantly asking why why why it can't do when the previous machine could:) .

We're having the same problem. Customer is producing full colour booklets on 160gsm paper, we sold the machine not realizing it wouldnt staple that. We tried upping the fixing temp and that temporarily sorted the problem until they started doing long print runs (at last check, about 5000 in a day), then the ink would start lifting off again.

We've tried modifying print jobs to change the job to heavy 2 post driver but the machine cancels stapling due to paper type.

We've proven that the machine can handle the stapling by using plain paper settings, so its merely a firmware setting that stopping it, probably somewhere in the dip switches.

Anyone else had any luck?

Synaux
02-24-2014, 05:47 PM
We're having the same problem. Customer is producing full colour booklets on 160gsm paper, we sold the machine not realizing it wouldnt staple that. We tried upping the fixing temp and that temporarily sorted the problem until they started doing long print runs (at last check, about 5000 in a day), then the ink would start lifting off again.

We've tried modifying print jobs to change the job to heavy 2 post driver but the machine cancels stapling due to paper type.

We've proven that the machine can handle the stapling by using plain paper settings, so its merely a firmware setting that stopping it, probably somewhere in the dip switches.

Anyone else had any luck?

Random idea: try enabling glossy mode--if that option is available on the 654s.

On others, this mode slows down the machine a little, which may give the extra time needed to heat the toner to the substrate.

methogod
02-24-2014, 06:17 PM
YOU WILL NEVER GET THIS TO WORK...

i have tried for a year and a half with a C650 and C452 both with the larger finsihers...

it just wont make a nice booklet anyway.


best bet is to print it, and take it to a bindery.... just add the cost into your production...

saburnsjax
02-24-2014, 06:37 PM
We've proven that the machine can handle the stapling by using plain paper settings, so its merely a firmware setting that stopping it, probably somewhere in the dip switches.



Would love to know what to tell the tech to try. I have a call in and was going to request a patch from Konica (don't know what else to try!).

The machine prints color beautifully on 28# when you tell the machine it is Thick 1, and it staples 28# beautifully if you "lie" to it and call it plain... but as you state it is physically limited by some firmware or software setting.

There should be no reason I can't print a dozen color booklets on regular 28# paper on a machine of this caliber. I'm not talking runs of 100's or 1000's here. I'm talking runs in the dozens, so outsourcing to a bindery is something we do obviously, but not for such a small quantity.

Synaux
02-24-2014, 07:14 PM
YOU WILL NEVER GET THIS TO WORK...

i have tried for a year and a half with a C650 and C452 both with the larger finsihers...

it just wont make a nice booklet anyway.


best bet is to print it, and take it to a bindery.... just add the cost into your production...

I have to disagree regarding printing booklets on 32lb stock and lighter.

Unless I am crazy, I think the issue is these units not fixing the toner on 28lb when set as plain paper. I have never had an issue running 28lb Hammermill as plain paper.

They will do a fine job for booklets if you have enough patience to setup the finisher correctly--same goes for trifolds--you must be willing to perform a combination of physical and soft adjustments to get them right. A tedious endeavor to be sure.

methogod
02-24-2014, 07:17 PM
be glad to run them for you, just let me know what your cost is...






its a bitch - konica sold you a bizhub - business is the key word.
bizhub pro - business is still in there...

bizhub press - now they at least are declaring it a digital press.... C6501 is great low cost machine to run, C7000 is even better.

lostTech
02-25-2014, 02:24 AM
Random idea: try enabling glossy mode--if that option is available on the 654s.

On others, this mode slows down the machine a little, which may give the extra time needed to heat the toner to the substrate.

Unfortunately you cant use Glossy mode with double sided or center staple

Also found that you can do side staple with thick paper, just not center staple (booklet). It looks like its been artificially limited

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