Purchase decision help? Best 35-45 ppm?

mdcrazy · 06-09-2009

I am in the process of getting quotes to replace our OCE' im3511 printers. I have come here to search and get an industry feel for what is a garbage machine vs a good quality machine. To give you a little background I am a network analyst tasked with getting a new lease on printers and service. We have been with OCE for 6 years which the IM3511's are Sharp AR-M355N. The support is horrible. We call in to Brazil or something and then wait anywhere from 4 hours to 2 days for a tech to come out. Any ways here are my questions:
1. Are sharps generally good and we just have bad service?
2. We are getting quotes for Toshiba, Canon, Savin and Sharp. Market leader is Canon from what I am reading. Which ones are the most reliable? We are looking for mid range 35-45 ppm MFD.
3. I saw a post on the worst copier page here that said Toshiba E-Studio's are insults to the word $%it. Is this true?
4. I am finding that every sales person wants a baseline of what we are paying now which I find strange but maybe this is standard practice on lease buyouts. Is this the case?

Thanks for any help.

**schooltech** · 06-10-2009

Generally speaking, the majority of machines, across all manufacturers, are pretty good. Of course, the level of service will DRAMATICALLY affect the overall reliability and satisfaction for the end user.

I am a Ricoh guy, but do have some Sharp machines in my fleet. I would go to each thread on this site that represents the particular manufacturers and ask those techs what they think. I do know that the newer MX series Sharp machines are good boxes.

If you can find a good support team for your machine, they'll keep the service aspect of the machine transparent, and that is a good thing for you.

Sales will tell you what you want to hear, and techs will usually tell you how it is. If you want to hear about the true opinions on machines from the people who make a living by fixing them, ask a tech about any of your 'potential' machine purchases for that specific model.

Oh, do not get involved in 60-63 month leases; stay in the 36 month range, if you're going to lease.

**blackcat4866** · 06-10-2009

We sell Copystar, so I have a Copystar/Kyocera bias.

That being said, the CS-5050 is the most reliable black & white MFP that I have worked on in my 20 years.

The variable that will be harder to determine is the skill level of you local technicians. The tech can make or break any machine. =^..^=

Techster · 06-10-2009

I agree, the Copystar -Kyocera line is VERY strong. Canon has a great copier as well. In my opinion the toshiba's are junk!! They fall apart over time and have a lot of jamming issues. Fuser/drum replacement on the Kyocera's is very easily done as well which means less down time for you.

**Mr Spock** · 06-10-2009

As a Toshiba, Xerox and KonicaMinolta trained tech I am slightly biased..
The newer Konica's we have are easy to work on but the control panel takes a little getting use to. The Toshiba's I have run very well but I do not skimp on parts, when it needs it I put it in. The other techs wait until there is no other option before they put the part in, which leads to more service calls and bad reputation. The Xerox's are good boxes but most are either high machine cost or high service cost and check and see if it is new, used, or remanufactured before accepting delivery.

Having said the above I will say that most machine are about the same in reliability, IF they are serviced by a good tech and prefererably a manufactured trained tech. There are many nontrained techs, on this board, that will bo a excellent job taking care of you and your equipment but can they get manufacturer support when they have a rare, unsolvable issue?? Also what is the service department's machine to tech ratio? How many techs support your area? How big is the tech's territory? How quickly can they get the get parts for a down machine? What is the average response time? (You said anywhere from 4 hours to 2 days?) Who and where are you calling for service? Can they provide a loaner and if so what are the conditions?

Ok I have said my piece now let the flaming begin!!!

**schooltech** · 06-11-2009

So, I think that you can see that we all feel pretty much the same about the machines and service. Each manufacturer has some great and not-so-great boxes, but it's truly the service that will keep the machine running properly.

Trying to determine a reputable, competent service department can be a bit difficult, especially when times get tough and companies throttle back sending techs to school. Now, sending someone to school doesn't make a tech a great tech, but it will help someone be more comfortable with the equipment.

Spock is right on with the ratios and response times- you shouldn't be waiting days for service, unless you live out in BFE. What you don't want is a company with just a few techs, a huge territory for them to service, and stocks of parts and supplies that are too small.

Also, make sure that loaner machines and a good delivery system are both in place, in case something goes wrong.

View Profile · 06-11-2009

Finding a decent service company is probably the most daunting task. If you have already found a service company that shows up relatively quickly, can get parts in a timely manner and employs competent technicians, buy whatever make/model they are selling. If you are looking for a new service company, be careful. Salesmen lie. They lie in print, they lie in email, they lie on the phone... They lie right to your face. I used to work as a technician for this certain unnamed dealership that grossly misrepresented the service department (and the sales/supply departments for that matter). Salesmen would regularly tell customers that all technicians were factory trained on every piece of equipment that we sold (lie), that we had a 2 hour response time (bold-faced lie) and that we had a 1 day turnaround if parts were needed (not even on the same planet as the truth). Just be careful...

But if I must pick a copier in the range you are looking for, I'd have to go with either a Kyocera KM-4035/5035 (if you're looking to buy used) or KM-4050/5050. Both run great provided you take care of them and only use OEM toner in them. The machines are modular, so servicing takes less time as the main systems in the machine are replaced as "units" (less time is spent in your office taking apart complicated components). The interfaces are pretty user friendly (although totally different between the two model groups) as well.

**imthinman** · 06-11-2009

Here's my 2 cents
1. Response time can be improved by asking at the time of the sale if the response time is guaranteed and if so by what means. For example $100/call for late helps motivation
2. Don't low ball maintenance contract. Incentive to use generic and less to stock parts or pay better techs (certified or not)
3. Ask techs how easy is machine to work on. User friendly is self-evident but tech friendly equals long serviciability
Imthinman

mdcrazy · 06-11-2009

Yes the 4 hour to two day response refers to the experience I have had with OCE' in the past year. We have im3511s which to my knowledge are older sharp models. To call in we call some people maybe in Brazil or something who have an accent and we can't understand. Then they try to make us be the parts technicians over the phone every time when we have a maintenance agreement. I can recall many times when I call up for an error code. A tech will call back and say the part won't be here for a few days. I assume it is because they don't carry any local parts and it all has to be shipped in due to the age of the printers.
Finally we had a problem with a printer where it took a month to finally get fixed. It was only fixed when I called the salesperson and asked nicely that they send their best technician out. Normally they send a rude 90 year old dude. One time I asked him if he could look at another problem that came up while he was on site and he said that I would have to call it in before he could look at it and I was SOL. I thought surely this was a waste of gas and time when you are already on location and the machine just needed to be lubed so it wouldn't squeak anymore. As you can see we have been burned and I am trying to find a good reputable company to deal with in Kansas City.

1. In regards to Toshiba. What do you think of the e-studio 353 monochrome? and the e-studio 3530c?
2. Any thoughts on Muratec MFX2050?

So far I am gathering that the Toshiba's have overall quality design flaws and the new sharps have one engineering issue that should be fixed.

You guys are a great source of information thanks for everything.

**fixthecopier** · 06-11-2009

Everybody said it correct about service. My contracts have a minimum 4 hour response time. In my area, you will find mostly Konica and Ricoh products as the big hitters. I have had Konica Minolta on a military base for 10 years and the new Bizhubs are almost indestructible. Keep in mind that saying a copier is soilder proof is saying a lot. Lots of the machines are in hallways where hundreds of soilders have acess and nobody has been trained on it. I had machines on the last contract run 3 years without a work order. I like to think it is partly because I give good service and hand out cards with my cell number, so I can show up quick. It all goes back to service. People will put up with a poor copier with good service, more than they will put up with bad service on a good copier. One of my contracts on base went to a Ricoh dealer as the low bidder. The machines are being changed right now. Some of my customers tried to block the new machine from being delivered, because of service. Some others went to a meeting and told the new contractor that if their techs could not show up in an hour like I do, then they should leave 2 machines, because they can not be down. I take that as a compliment. So sorry for the new guys. I hope I did not raise the bar too high. So anyway, it is all about the service!