Is "First page out" spec on laser printers a fraud?

[aab1]

Well if that's what they think of their customers they don't deserve to keep me.

Loose you? I knew you were a tightass, but didn't think it was that bad. And FYI, Canon makes over $35 billion a year, so your stinky "thousands of dollars" mean nothing to them. You said you buy re manufactured cartridges and try to refill them with waste toner. So how are you contributing to that figure? At your rate, I hope your business doesn't rely on its copies/prints otherwise you'll be cleaning up undigested seaweed stains on toilets at Canon HQ in Japan.

[KenB]

Ever notice that the smallest customers give the most grief?

I'm done.

This passed ridiculous two hours ago.

Good night!

[aab1]

Look, I had like 10 HPs over the past years and HP have always been great, even exchanging a $600 copier twice at no cost and they paid to have UPS pickup the old one and give me a brand new one. They always release driver/firmware updates fairly regularly to address their customers concerns.

I was just expecting the same quality service from Canon.

By the way it's obvious the 99 page limit is nothing more than a value in the driver software, all they need to do is open the source code of the driver, and replace "99" with "9999" (in fact I even tried sending 999 999 prints to my HP inkjet and it took it without problems, I canceled it shortly after it started of course), and recompile and put it online.

The printer has no problem printing a 1000 page document at once, but won't let you print the same page more than 99 times, so it's not the hardware that's incapable of doing more than 99 prints, it's nothing more than a numerical value in the driver software that sets the limit. Again the HP version of this copier which is identical in every way (other than a different scanner) doesn't have any 99 copy print limit.

My next printer definitely will be an HP, I've gotten a non-HP printer twice in my life (and about 10 HPs), a POS epson that failed after 50 pages/2 weeks, and this canon which is nowhere near the worthless junk that epsons are but still this software limit is ridiculous. I've only be dissapointed with one HP inkjet that failed after about 20 000 prints but it still more than paid for itself in that time.

Perhaps for the really big machines canon is better, but it seems like for $1000-5000 machines HP is far ahead in features, user friendliness and support.

You're joking, right?

We have customers who have several MILLION dollars worth of gear, from several vendors, and can't get legitimate updates that would make sense, at least not without paying big bucks for customization.

I really don't think that they are too terribly concerned about one $800 machine, and the possible future business you may give them. I suppose that if they had a ton of the same complaint that they may change it, but I wouldn't count on it. Keep in mind that is would cost them far more than $800 and any future business from one customer to make what seems to be a tiny driver modification.

It's entirely possible that this would require new firmware as well, if not new hardware. See how quickly this gets complicated?

If you love HP that much, then stick with them - they make a good product - I have a LaserJet 6P at home.

[peterepeat]

OK,
......so let me get this straight....
......you've had 10 HP's in the last 5 years....
......if my 2nd grade math hasn't failed me, that's...
......hmmm let's see...
.....1 new printer every 6 months?
Sounds quite cost effective!
YUP! HP is definitely the way to go. See them all the time in print shops.
You're EXACTLY the type of customer HP WANTS to attract!!!

With all due respect, you come on this forum & do nothing but bitch & moan about your machine. You seem to "know everything" about imaging equipment yet ask all kinds of random & meaningless questions.
What do you hope to accomplish here?

[aab1]

Who ever said it was in 5 years? That was over a 20+ year period, there were also times I've had 2 at the same time (one for photo printing and a business model for high volume printing).

None of those 10 HPs ever broke except one after 20 000 prints, they all still work like new if ever I wanted to use a 20 year old printer, I replaced them because I always want the latest and greatest.

And my last HP is still working great after 3 years and 250 000 prints, I haven't replaced it mostly because inkjets under $1000 seem to have topped off at 35 pages/minute, although $25 000 inkjets run at 150 pages/minute but are out of my price range.

And if you think I'm that stupid for using an HP business inkjet for my printing service, how is it that my prices per color page are TEN TIMES CHEAPER than major copy centers? Not a single copy center using laser printers can get anywhere near as low prices per page as I do because laser printers cost infinitely more in toner and replacement parts. $200 of ink in my HP makes over 50 000 prints and the only parts to replace are 2 printheads every 60 000 prints for under $50 each. That's 0.5 cents a color page, no laser printer in the world can print for this cheap.

And even if your ridiculous assumption that I replaced them every 6 months was true, that would still end up way cheaper than any laser printer because business inkjets cost 0.4 cents per color page (the business models that is, not the home models with half a teaspoon of ink per color).

OK,
......so let me get this straight....
......you've had 10 HP's in the last 5 years....
......if my 2nd grade math hasn't failed me, that's...
......hmmm let's see...
.....1 new printer every 6 months?
Sounds quite cost effective!
YUP! HP is definitely the way to go. See them all the time in print shops.
You're EXACTLY the type of customer HP WANTS to attract!!!

With all due respect, you come on this forum & do nothing but bitch & moan about your machine. You seem to "know everything" about imaging equipment yet ask all kinds of random & meaningless questions.
What do you hope to accomplish here?

[Fer]

Yes it's a fraud is just to look great on paper. On the bigger copiers they programmed the firmware to let a single page copy come out face up instead of face down. Since u don;t need sorting on a single copy, nobody bothers.

I does give u a faster page out, because copier doesn't have to flip over the page.

Why, u may ask. Well, because in big million dollar tenders, buyers without any clue about copiers and printing just put the specs side by side, and take the best. Those specs don't mean shit IRL, they won't tell u if a copier is fast, reliable and have flashy output.

The ironicle part even is those big dollar companies, want to save on paper so they set alle drivers for duplex printing by default. We set the papertray's on "image side priority" for company paper. Average first out increases dramatically. Who cares?? Nobody the deal is signed already....

[peterepeat]

I've been doing this for about 5 years, using only an inkjet until 2 weeks ago, it's not my main income source but makes me a bit of extra cash and I have many repeat customers since several years.

Look, I had like 10 HPs over the past years and HP have always been great,

It was YOU who said that. Knucklehead.

And if you think I'm that stupid for using an HP business inkjet for my printing service, how is it that my prices per color page are TEN TIMES CHEAPER than major copy centers? Not a single copy center using laser printers can get anywhere near as low prices per page as I do because laser printers cost infinitely more in toner and replacement parts. $200 of ink in my HP makes over 50 000 prints and the only parts to replace are 2 printheads every 60 000 prints for under $50 each. That's 0.5 cents a color page, no laser printer in the world can print for this cheap.

Tell us, oh wise oracle...Why dou YOU think nobody uses inkjet for production printing other than you and 3rd-graders?

[Stirton.M]

Must suck to use an inferior machine and have to wait so long to get a first page out...

Perhaps if you went with the larger machines, many of which would not subject you to that long wait, things would be better?

I have to laugh at the counts you speak of...250K in three years on a little HP printer is nothing. I work on machines that can do that in a matter of a couple months. Some in a matter of a couple weeks. And none of the machines I service have a first copy out period that exceeds a few seconds after the job has spooled through to the controller.

The CPC that those large print shops pay goes a lot further than merely paying for consumables and parts. You no doubt have to service your HPs on your own dime. That is fine, since there is not a whole lot to an HP printer relative to maintenance, considering the print volume you speak of. The cost of a toner cartridge is indeed cheap on a machine that has a low TCO like HPs generally do.

But HPs are meant to be, for the most part, disposable units. They were not built for longevity, and service on them is limited to a few basic items like replacing the image cartridge, maybe the fuser from time to time.

Compared to a full MFP like a KM C652, a lifespan measured to be about 7 million, with a warmup time of 2 seconds, CPC on black less than a penny, a few cents for full colour, 1800DPI @ 65 ppm with multiple finishing options and weight capabilities, capable of multiple format scan output along with faxing options, quite frankly, I look at an HP with bile building in my throat.

The customer who takes on one of these pays for my service to maintain and support the machine over the life of that machine. The toner is included in that maintenance. ALL the parts are included. So if I have to replace a control panel, printer control board, motor or a measly preseparation tire, all of that is covered in the cost of ownership. No extra costs. Oh, pardon me. They pay extra for staples.

Can you do hole punching with your HP, can you select between 2,3 or 4 hole choice on the fly? How about stapling? How about saddle stitching and folding? Can it scan to email, computer, memory stick, print from ALL those sources including internet print?

Your costs are low because you are cheap. Plain and simple as that.

But beware, companies like the one I work for are striving to put people like you out of business by providing vastly superior hardware with vastly superior capabilities to those offices that previously went to cheap outfits like yours when colour prints were needed. The days of Kinkos and Office Depot having a competitive edge are going the way of the Dodo. Only large print shops that fill the needs for press related publication will survive the fallout, and I can guarantee you this...none of those large shops owns little inkjets or little HPs for the purpose of printing documents for their customers.

[Brian8506]

Time to stop replying to this guy. He's just playing around here wasting our valuable time. Just asking about first page time knowing full well thats from ready condition is a perfect example. I'm out of this one.

[KenB]

Even though he admitted that he learned from our numerous replies, I lost all technical respect for him when he asked about recycling waste toner.

He has come to a site which is dedicated to dogs to brag about his cat. (Sorry, Blackcat and StirtonM. )

If he wants to ask intelligent questions and make worthwhile remarks about what the rest of us are all dedicated to, he is more than welcome here - after all, that's what this site is all about.

If he wants to make a mockery of Canon, and the industry as a whole, I say ignore him, or ban him if it gets to be too much.