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  1. #1
    Master Of The Obvious 10,000+ Posts
    This one's for you network guys ...

    blackcat4866's Avatar
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    This one's for you network guys ...

    I'm sure you've all had this happen:

    You're on a setup. You plug the customers network cord into the surge suppressor. You connect a 5 footer from the surge suppressor to the MFP. You power up, and wait for DHCP to find the machine and assign an address. And nothing happens. And more nothing happens ...

    ... then you connect the customers cable directly into the MFP. Then DHCP does it's magic. An open address is selected, DNS1 and maybe even a DNS2 are visible. Sometimes even a domain name. You set a static address and this part is done, unless ...

    ... unless the customer is concerned that some of his machines connect through the surge suppressor, and some don't. Why!? I have a couple of theories, and I'd like your opinions:

    1) Perhaps the surge suppressor is actually open across the network connection. Maybe there was some kind of a surge, but I kind of doubt it in the 2 seconds it was connected since I took it out of the box. I suppose it should test through with my cable tester ... any reason it shouldn't? I can also put my laptop on the network side, and the MFP on the other side of the surge suppressor, set up static addresses, and see if it will connect.

    2) Maybe there are more than the allowable 6 meters of cable hub to patch panel, 90 meters from patch to wall plug, and 3 meters from wall plug to MFP. Exactly what happens when the wire is too long? Do the electrons just get tired and lay there in the wire, because they just don't have any more jiggle left? Maybe packets lost? Maybe low signal levels? How can I tell? I've got Wireshark, but when I start the thing running I can't make anything of the gibberish that it pours out. And if I'm not getting a network connection it's not going to do me any good anyhow. Is there a more suitable software/tool?

    3) Maybe I've got a bad router port? Again, how can I tell?

    =^..^=
    If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
    1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
    2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
    3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
    4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
    5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

    blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

  2. #2
    Geek Extraordinaire 2,500+ Posts KenB's Avatar
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    Re: This one's for you network guys ...

    I think that quite a few power filters attenuate the network signal so much sometimes that it becomes unusable.

    I've seen this a number of times, even with the ones we sell (name brand withheld).

    The problem seems to effect scanning more than printing, for some goofy reason.

    It's gotten to the point where we've stopped using the Ethernet portion of the filter.

    While they may do a good job on the power side of things, the network is another story.

    Sadly, though, we had a customer have a pretty hard lightning strike a few months ago, where the jolt that came through the network cables fried a number of MFP NICs (read "motherboards"), and cost a boatload of cash to get resurrected.

    They purchased the equipment about 5 years ago, back when we didn't sell filters.

    So, name your poison: Use a filter and risk poor performance, or don't use a filter and risk getting zapped.
    “I think you should treat good friends like a fine wine. That’s why I keep mine locked up in the basement.” - Tim Hawkins

  3. #3
    Vulcan Inventor of Death 1,000+ Posts Mr Spock's Avatar
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    Re: This one's for you network guys ...

    Also if the customer does not use all 4 pairs for setting up the network run this can cause issues. I have an account where we had to put hubs in between the wall and the machine to compensate. They used 2 of the pairs for the phone line jack to save on cabling and for some reason this caused the machine to do crazy things. The hub used all 4 pairs to the machine so it was happy.
    And Star Trek was just a tv show...yeah right!

  4. #4
    Master Of The Obvious 10,000+ Posts
    This one's for you network guys ...

    blackcat4866's Avatar
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    Re: This one's for you network guys ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Spock View Post
    Also if the customer does not use all 4 pairs for setting up the network run this can cause issues. I have an account where we had to put hubs in between the wall and the machine to compensate. They used 2 of the pairs for the phone line jack to save on cabling and for some reason this caused the machine to do crazy things. The hub used all 4 pairs to the machine so it was happy.
    This is something I can check. I cannot imagine this particular customer trying to cheat by running phone lines in the same cable as network, but I can imagine them just being lazy, and not terminating all the leads.

    Yes, since phone circuits are running at 90vac, it most certainly could induce currents in the other pairs within the cable. Thanks. =^..^=
    If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
    1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
    2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
    3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
    4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
    5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

    blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

  5. #5
    Senior Tech 250+ Posts MFPTech's Avatar
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    Re: This one's for you network guys ...

    In my opinion the network cables should run only NIC to NIC or NIC to Switch. Anything else might cause problems.

  6. #6
    Service Manager 1,000+ Posts
    This one's for you network guys ...

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    Re: This one's for you network guys ...

    wow...

    I have never heard of that problem before...

    thanks for the information
    Sad To Say I Don't Have a Life
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  7. #7
    Master Of The Obvious 10,000+ Posts
    This one's for you network guys ...

    blackcat4866's Avatar
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    Re: This one's for you network guys ...

    Not that I fixed anything, but here is what I found:

    I connected my cable tester across the network portion of the surge protectors. They all read correctly.
    Then I set up the laptop to the surge to the MFP, with static addresses. Again good connection and quick ping times.
    Then I set the laptop back to DHCP, and connected it directly to the network cable. This is where it got interesting.

    At location #1 the network interface at first connected, but would flicker to "No Connection" for less than a second at 20 second intervals. I had arrived on site early. When the clock ticked over 8:00 I lost the connection completely, and could not get it back. No MFP, no surge suppressor, just the laptop and a cable (and I tried three other cables). Somehow, I don't see this as a hardware problem.

    At location #2 the network interface connected, but similarly dropped off at ~20 second intervals. I had the presence of mind this time to run a continuous ping. You can see (15) or so successful pings at 2ms or less, then (4) Timed Out, then another (15) successful pings, etc. Again, no MFP, no surge suppressor, just a laptop and a cable. How can this be the surge suppressor? I took a screen shot of the ping, and forwarded to the right department. This machine has been dropping off the network randomly for 6 months.

    I'm just glad to finally document this. There must be some sort of way to measure the signal strength. The cable is purported to be less than 100ft, so length should not be an issue.

    If it were my responsibility I think I'd perform the same test right at the switch, to narrow down whether the problem was with the cable or the switch. I suspect that since at least two locations in the same building have the same symptoms, and quite possibly several others. That rules out a single bad network cable, unless they're all bundled in the same conduit with a 220VAC power line.

    I don't know a thing about these big networks. What's the geography? I'm assuming that there's a server preceding the switch somewhere. Anything else? =^..^=
    If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
    1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
    2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
    3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
    4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
    5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

    blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

  8. #8
    Service Manager 2,500+ Posts
    This one's for you network guys ...

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    Re: This one's for you network guys ...

    I'm assuming that there's a server preceding the switch somewhere.
    Would a server in between not be showing with a networkscanner such as Netscan?

    Hans

  9. #9
    Field Service Manager 1,000+ Posts
    This one's for you network guys ...

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    Re: This one's for you network guys ...

    Is it possible that their network is 1 Gig and the surge surpressor is older and only supports 10/100? Or that one of the patch cords you used is not Cat5e or Cat6?
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  10. #10
    Master Of The Obvious 10,000+ Posts
    This one's for you network guys ...

    blackcat4866's Avatar
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    Re: This one's for you network guys ...

    Firstly, thanks for your responses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansoon View Post
    Would a server in between not be showing with a networkscanner such as Netscan?

    Hans
    I'm sure one of those is the server. The problem is that there were 100+ live addresses picked up. I don't have any clues which would be the server. Typically (but not always) the server is assigned a very low or very high address, but with so many possibilities where to start?

    Quote Originally Posted by pepper38_cnd View Post
    Is it possible that their network is 1 Gig and the surge surpressor is older and only supports 10/100? Or that one of the patch cords you used is not Cat5e or Cat6?
    At least in this building, the network was wired from scratch within the last 3 months. So at least the cabling should be Cat5 or Cat6 compatible. The 5 footers came with the surge suppressors, and are ~3 yrs old.

    Here's a strange coincidence: Another call with the MFP dropping off the network today. No surge suppressor at all. I put the laptop on the cable with DHCP set, and on continuous ping got (4) Hardware Error, then (4) Timed Out, (4) Hardware Error, (4) Timed Out, etc. This one was a little more obvious. The 20 ft cable had several kinks, and two flat spots where the Venus had been sitting on the cable. The other cable in the room was connected to a dead network connection. New cable fixed this one. Do IT people own laptops? This doesn't seem mystical or genius as a method of diagnosis. Come on guys! You can't always blame the MFP!

    =^..^=
    If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
    1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
    2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
    3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
    4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
    5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

    blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

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