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  1. #11
    Geek Extraordinaire 2,500+ Posts KenB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow1 View Post
    I don't know about any other Mfgr, but Ricoh stores data on the HDD raw - there is no recognizable data format (at least as far as any forensic software is concerned - they would be expecting a standard Microsoft or Mac file system and would not be able to piece much together) to recover data from. Ricoh also offers a Disk Overwrite Security System (DOSS) capable of doing a DOD compliant wipe and a removable HDD option for most machines if they're in a high security area. There are copy prevention systems that can recognize a secure print document and refuse to copy it. (of course all machines in the secured area have to have this feature or you could just walk over to another machine.) There are also user modes that allow a key operator to lock the user functions and also lock a tech out of service mode (we don't tell people about this for obvious reasons)

    Its just a matter of the sales and service people having the right information to sell to a secure environment customer.
    Just to play the proverbial "devil's advocate", what would prevent someone from putting a used drive out of an old machine into another one, and retrieving the data that way? At that point, I would at least think that the fact that the data is proprietary becomes a moot point - please correct me if I'm wrong. (Quite frankly, I hope that I am...)
    “I think you should treat good friends like a fine wine. That’s why I keep mine locked up in the basement.” - Tim Hawkins

  2. #12
    Service Manager 1,000+ Posts
    CBS news story that can affect us all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Shadow1's Avatar
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    In the newer machines, swapping a HDD like this will trigger a service code - the machine writes the SN to the drive and if they don't match it won't boot. You can format the drive, but that wipes the data.

    Its kind of a moot point anyway - the machine discards copy and print data at the end of each job and won't reprint old jobs, so there's no recovery that way anyway. Document server data is a different story - I guess its trchnically possible to swap drives and only initialize the system partition with the SN written to it - not the doc server.

    I'm not saying you can't recover images from a drive, just that you really have to want it pretty bad to make it worth it
    73 DE W5SSJ

  3. #13
    Passing Duplication Xpert 1,000+ Posts cobiray's Avatar
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    Wow, they sure threw the Buffalo, N.Y., Police Sex Crimes Division under the bus in that one!!!!! Leaving documents on the glass is clah-ssic!!!!!!! Who has this guy tried to tell about it? Isn't he aware of the security measures available on machines now?!? Also, it's up to the owners/leasers to take care of sensitive material upon disposal. We have a school district that takes the drives down to the wood shop and puts a drill press through them (yes, they pay for new blank drives to go in) before they go back from lease. Sounds like a big commercial for Juntunen's company to me. Also, talking about mass hysteria does not prevent mass hysteria but it sure does sell advertisement!
    the savin2535 is displaying well bet the hiter lamp is not shining and the lamp had been tested o.k.please kindly help.
    Samir: No, not again. I... why does it say paper jam when there is no paper jam? I swear to God, one of these days, I just kick this piece of shit out the window.
    Michael Bolton: You and me both, man. That thing is lucky I'm not armed.

  4. #14
    Service Manager 1,000+ Posts
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    Lagonda's Avatar
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    Paranoia or Hype!

    Paranoia or Hype!
    My first thoughts on the issue were that there are a lot of paranoid people out there who are worried about somebody finding out their “secrets” even though other peoples businesses details are extremely boring! All the documents I’ve ever found in and around copiers are just time sheets, invoices, advertising bumf and other uninteresting rubbish.

    How ever one day one of our senior salesmen thought he was faxing some of his personal financial details through to his accountant where as he actually stored them in the Document Server on the copier. These were quickly found and spread around the office and the result was he didn’t get any co-operation out of the salaried staff as we all thought the bastard was way to rich!

    The fact that the salesman didn’t know the difference between a doc server and a fax is the subject for another thread all together, just how do they manage to sell something they don’t understand?
    At least 50% of IT is a solution looking for a problem.

  5. #15
    Geek Extraordinaire 2,500+ Posts KenB's Avatar
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    Regardless as to whether this is hype or not, my office had a TON of phone calls or emails on this today, as I just found out.

    I'll get more details tomorrow, but this doesn't sound like a lot of fun.
    “I think you should treat good friends like a fine wine. That’s why I keep mine locked up in the basement.” - Tim Hawkins

  6. #16
    just one copy?? 500+ Posts
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    jonezy999's Avatar
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    I dont know about the rest of the world, but in Australia, it is law that the hdd must be left with the customer, or at least offered to them. As Ricoh exlained to me, the harddrive belongs to the customer, regardless if they own/lease the machine. That said, no customer ever wants thier old hdd.

  7. #17
    Service Manager 1,000+ Posts
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    nmfaxman's Avatar
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    I got lucky with only one call and that machine is just a copier/ not connected.
    Hopefully the story will use it's time on the website and go to archive.
    Most people want to see the latest news, not older.
    Still seems like a lot of time and work to maybe get one secure document.
    Even Norton can't restore an HDD that has been reformatted 2 or three times.
    Why do they call it common sense?

    If it were common, wouldn't everyone have it?

  8. #18
    Service Manager 1,000+ Posts
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    Shadow1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfaxman View Post
    Even Norton can't restore an HDD that has been reformatted 2 or three times.
    But for the Extreme Paranoid, you're still not safe. Technically, most OS's just write the sector header info and a blank directory structure during a format. (quick format) The data may still exist on the drive.

    Overwriting the data to Null is not totally secure either - this just writes binary 0's to the data portions of the drive, but the actual magnetic fields only have to be written so the drive detects them as a 0 or 1, and traces of the old data still remain. A 0 that was written over a 1 will look a little more 1'ish to the right equipment than a 0 over another 0.

    NSA and DOD wipes overwrite the data with multiple patterns of 0's and 1's - each overwrite makes the 1's and 0's more uniform, but in theory aliens from space could still read the original data.

    The "Gold Standard" in erasing a HDD is sometimes referred to as the "Banker's Wipe" The process writes 0 and 1 patterns 3 times like a DOD wipe, but then writes completely random data to the drive. This process is repeated 7 times, with the drive sectors written in a different order each time. This prevents the data tracks from having readable "edges" since the heads can land in a very slightly different position when they're being moved from different places on the drive. The last step is to write the drive to Null. The addition of random data to the pattern means any little green men trying to recover the data will not know if a particular bit was written to 1 and 0 21 times or 28, so they cannot know how strong an original 1 may be. (this type of wipe can take days even on a small drive)

    An even more secure wipe (and much quicker) would be to heat the drive's platters past their curie point - the temprature where all magnetic fields in a material become random. This temprature varies from material to material, but for iron its 768°C or 1414 °F. It's a pretty good bet the drive is unrecoverable at that point.
    73 DE W5SSJ

  9. #19
    ALIEN OVERLORD 2,500+ Posts fixthecopier's Avatar
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    Why bot6her overwriting, one of my customers has a small press with a hydro pump, and it punches a tennis ball size dent through the middle of the HD. nuf said
    The greatest enemy of knowledge isn't ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. Stephen Hawking

  10. #20
    Service Manager 1,000+ Posts
    CBS news story that can affect us all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Shadow1's Avatar
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    Well, if you want to really get into mechanical data security we can have a lot more fun.

    We can offer long range data security - I can secure your data from over 400 yards away with my .243 Varmit Gun.

    High tech - I'm thinking a couple shots from a 1.5MV Tesla coil would do a pretty good job.

    Hard Core - There are very few security concerns that snat be addressed with a liberal application of C-4. The bits just don't survive being blasted to bits.

    ...And I haven't even checked "Will it Blend".
    73 DE W5SSJ

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