Responding to non- techs

[wagon]

To WayneW, people like you, I am sure, are more than welcome to ask (and receive) help -proper help. I think the big problem are persons who have zero technical experience who try to score free advice to fix the problem themselves, doing a technician out of work in the process. I expect, though, that often BECAUSE of their inexperience, they end up digging a bigger hole for themselves. As for incompentent technicians ; they do exist - I have worked with some. Sometimes a problem can LOOK like a 'bad tech' but the problem is really a dud machine (whether that be a whole model or just a particular box).

Just another 3 cents worth...

Wagon.

[Scott_Lewis]

I personally stood over these clowns, and watched them fumble and scratch their heads for days on end working on this machine. If you're offended because we cancelled the service contract, i guess i can understand the sloidarity, but that dosent make THEM right. We had 37 service calls within the first 30 days of having the equipment.

1st - Sounds like you bought a lemon of a USED copier. Did it occur to you that the previous owner unloaded this machine because of problems with it.

2nd - I hate it when some clown how knows next to nothing about what I'm working on stands over me while I'm trying to figure out a difficult problem and starts 'judging' my qualifications for working on the hardware. If I scratch my head or mutter under my breath while I'm working on a copier, I must not -really- know what I'm doing. Not every service call is routine.

3rd - It has been my experience that Fiery provides too little in the way of service documentation whether it be Ricoh Minolta or whatever.

4th - What -other- problems have you been having that may be compounding and confusing the diagnosing of this latest problem? I find it hard to believe any service tech/dealer could close out the same problem 36 times.

5th - It seems obvious to me you did NOT buy the copier from the dealer you entered into a service agreement with. That dealer should have made the copier good on his own nickel or taken it back if they sold it to you.

6th - Our company will NOT put a used machine under a maintenance agreement until the client has paid us to bring it up to par unless we sold them the machine.

7th - Since you didn't purchase the copier from the dealer you had servicing the machine, they may indeed not have been certified to work on it. This is not a simple machine. Much of what we learn is OJT. Most of the time going to a new machine involves learning little things to add to our existing knowledge. Going to a new model we will do our best. But, it isn't always smooth sailing.

Now that I got that out of my system, time to end my rant.

BTW, get a copy of "COLOR CONTROLLER E-750
SERVICE GUIDE
for digital copiers
A guide for service technicians" .

It should answer most of your questions about the controller.

[Copier_Guy]

The opinions expressed on this thread do not necessarily express the mindset of all the techs present and accounted for. Or What ever.

To get to the point, I believe this forum operates on a democratic philosophy. YOU DON'T HAVE TO HELP IF YOU DON'T WANT TO!!!
(As someone said earlier and I must give you your do!)

That being said, those that need help, bring it on. I'm sure if someone has the answer to your question, you will recieve it. Those that don't want to answer, more power to you. It's as simple as that.

If a user has the technical aptitude to fix his/her own stuff, good for him/her. If not, helping him/her will only generate more revenue for the rest of us. That's how capitalism works, I guess and I'm living the dream. The ups and the downs. I hate to lose a job, but it happens. The beautiful thing is, there's always another one around the corner.

To take it to another level, how many of you will rip apart your washing machine and try to fix it yourself if it stops working. I raise my hand because I'm guilty, but I don't want to be ostrasized by a forum full of Maytag Repair guys because I don't fix that stuff for a living. Put that in your thinktank and savor it before you start throwing bricks in a glass house.

Peace and prosperity to everyone.

[wagon]

To take it to another level, how many of you will rip apart your washing machine and try to fix it yourself if it stops working. I raise my hand because I'm guilty, but I don't want to be ostrasized by a forum full of Maytag Repair guys because I don't fix that stuff for a living. Put that in your thinktank and savor it before you start throwing bricks in a glass house.

I think there is some 'solidarity' between technical people of all persuasions. I think a problem arises when somebody with NO technical nous tries to DIY without any idea. If nothing else, they could be injured or killed if they work on something live (without any idea of what is safe!). Particularly with fuser related faults, which seem to be a recurring problem to end users who use this forum. I think copier, printer and fax techs have a pretty good idea what is safe and what is not, even if they are not familiar with a particular brand or model or even machine.

Grumble.

[WayneW]

@wagon, I thank you for the “welcome to ask questions”, and “point taken” on possible machine problems and DUDDS. Please bear in mind that we have, on premises, several Xerox DC 12’s as well as Xerox 61xx series machines. (3 of each, purchased used and under contracts). I know bad techs exist, I have witnessed them 1st hand where this particular piece of equipment is concerned. I am talking about 2 guys who, after several hours of poking around, and basically doing NOTHING, said to each other, “Try rebooting it, maybe that’ll work”. Being the computer person that I am, I can understand this mentality once a “change” has been made, but not as a move of pure desperation.

@ ScottLewis
1) Lemon or not, we PAID for the equipment and a service contract. It was EXPECTED it to function as presented. No matter to us who or why the machine was discarded, the fact is, we bought a machine and a contract for service. Both of which have failed miserably. Hence the existing problem.

2) I really don’t care for being called or considered a clown without basis. If you are referring to me, and going to defend this by the remark I made earlier, then ya best come loaded. I KNOW what I am doing, and if stumped I am MORE than willing to admit my failure. Unlike the 2 CLOWNS who came to fix this apparent piece of crap. I know a “good” tech (no matter their field) when I see one. They have a professional manner, and an analytical mind for troubleshooting. They don’t present themselves as a child with a new set of tinker toys. I have done plenty of service work in my career (for companies outside of my employers), and when I’m stumped, and being watched, I walk away, and call a knowledgeable source, or ADMIT I’m lost, and perhaps I may need help. As for “watching over your shoulder”, I can give you the names of no less than 4 veteran Xerox techs would tell you how glad they are to have me “watching over their shoulder”. I have a very analytical mind, and a knack for troubleshooting. Be it software or hardware, and have helped them through many problems, with their gratitude.

3) I agree 100%. Documentation on this unit, and its operating system is nothing short of pathetic. Currently I am guessing Solaris or debian for OS. Haven’t taken the drive out yet.

4) As for the number of problems, I can only tell you what service records show. I am not exaggerating at all when I tell you 37 service calls in 30 days (weather or not these were ever closed, I don’t know, and therefore cannot answer with confidence). Our stance is this machine is indeed a LEMON, and the service records prove our point. Be that as it may, it’s my understanding the original trouble was poor print quality and jamming in the duplex unit. None of which, seems to me, would be a Fiery problem, except possibly the quality issue, But as I said, I cannot answer this concisely, as this mess was handed to me “after the fact”. I can tell you this……on their final day in house, after 3 consecutive days of fumbling without answers, they said they had reloaded the Fiery software, and replaced parts in the PR unit. They said they’d be back “tomorrow” with other parts and a replacement duplexer tray, and were told their services were no longer needed. (sorry to those of you who “feel” for these guys, but enough is enough, and at some point we had to cut our losses)

5) Agreed, and most likely will be in litigation before long. I don’t work in the administrative part of the company, and again I cannot speak concisely here as to the “whys and wherefores” But you’re right in what you say,

6) Your company seems to be an upfront, and honest company. One that stands behind what they sell. From what I know of this machine, I can only wish the same could be said of the dealer we mistakenly decided to go with.

7) We did indeed purchase this machine through a dealer. We were told it fits our needs and would be backed 100%. Emphasis on “told” . We are in the process of making this “right”, however that has little or no effect on the fact we now own this machine outright, and are without service. Perhaps the final outcome will be that the dealer will be required to repay us for the time and money we have put into making this an operable piece of equipment. Not for me to decide, nor does it befront me on any level. I am merely the tech assigned to make it run to meet production schedules that were in place long ahead of its failure. As for OJT, I do that nearly 75% of the time and can sympathize. It seems no matter the equipment or the project, there is always the need to re-invent the wheel, as it were, to accomplish the task at hand. But, as I’m certain you and others will agree, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to recognize those who have a chance, and those who just don’t.

Phew, that was a mouthful.

As for the guide you mentioned, I bought and read it before posting in this forum, as well as the model specific service manuals for the machine itself. (as evidenced in my first posting) I’d never consider doing less. I have great respect for techs and the acquired knowledge they posses. In Section 4 of the E-750 manual “Error messages and Conditions” page 59, table 4-2, condition #4 is the current state of this machine. “Please Wait…” is displayed forever on the LCD panel. (this constitutes 2 minutes or longer,…. sorry couldn’t resist) There are 2 possible conditions explained
1) either the Network connection is faulty, or
2) 2)the System software is corrupt.

Since I am the network admin, and have setup this system from the ground up, and I am 100% positive there is nothing wrong with the network, I have come to the conclusion that either
A) the system software is corrupt (or disabled/ missing)
B) The X3e+ controller is fried and in need of replacement. I thought possibly the drive had failed, but diags say no, and since the drive is being seen by the system, I think software is a more likely explanation.

When in config mode on the CP, if I go to “Installation” and then “Network”, I get the message that the Ethernet Interface is not configured. If I select parallel, I am asked to send intallation software to the parallel port, I don’t have the software, and have no idea where to acquire it. So as it stands right now, this is one heck of an expensive color copier. In case my post was missed, the unit functions fine as a copier, leaving me to believe the the trouble is in the fiery. When the techs left, the machine was no longer available on the network for any workstation on the network.. Maybe the reloading of the software failed?

@CopierGuy Very well said! I’m certain that “help” wether it’s for techs, or the “go to guy” such as myself, was the true spirit of the board admin/owner when he embarked on this most gracious project. There are few people of such a mind in this world, and I thank god for them all.

@ EVERYONE. If anything I have said here or elsewhere has offended anyone, I apologize. I do my level best to speak fairly and honestly. It’s sometimes hard to not make a comment when something is best left alone or unsaid.

Good Day all, and God Bless

[Copier_Guy]

Wish I were there. I'd fix that piece of crap and put an end to the whole conflagration. (Is that even a word????)

Good luck on your mission and yes, that was a mouthful!.

[WayneW]

Wish I were there. I'd fix that piece of crap and put an end to the whole conflagration. (Is that even a word????)

Good luck on your mission and yes, that was a mouthful!.

Wish you were here too, an end to this sure would be nice.

Confounded conflagration anyway sounds like i word, i vote YES.

[yourownfree]

Man oh man we charge $160 USD for the first hour.
You could make this site only for certified techs like Canon does or others. Suppose the person asking is just a newbie first day on the job and he doesn't want to look bad. Also you will come to a point where no matter how much you explain how to fix a problem, the person you are helping, if a customer will finally throw up his hands in disgust anyway, since their knowledge of copiers etc. is limited. They wont even know what you are talking about, even if you tried to explain in simplest terms. The other thing is, they will usually get themselves in a real fix where it will cost them more money to repair, then it would have if they called for service the first time. The other thing is we really don't know the other persons situation financially or otherwise. As long as we do what we think is right and moral then we have done our best. We have a gift, although it might have taken years to acquire, we have it to share and help, but not to do bodily harm. I wonder how many times I needed help, but people wouldn't share with me when i was thirsty? Would you not help your brother? I see there are alot of people here that do not have access to Canon support. I will not give them my support id number, but i will try and point them in the right direction. Even though that was earned as well as the lifetime of learning, it is a matter of security. We need to set a good example for others to follow, and I will bet that there are many people that look up to you for what you know and have done for them. Make sure you tell customer up front before you work on the copier what the cost will be, and have them sign it, then work on their machine. If they have a problem then tell them you have a family to feed and overhead costs, or tell them they are luck they don't have to pay $160 an hour. If it was me, i would tell them, look I will charge you a minimum of x amount to look at it and tell you how much it will cost to fix and if you agree with the work to be performed i will deduct the estimate fee from the final work or if you don't want the work done you just pay me for the estimate. We charge $35 just to look at it. remember you are worth more than customer wants to make you believe you are worth, simply to get something for nothing. If you do side jobs other than copiers, still set a goal as to what you are worth per hour or job. If you don't limit your free stuff you won't have a life. Everybody will be knocking on your door asking for help for free, you get a thankyou and no time to spend with your family. Its ok to choose wisely who you will help for free, and only you will know. These people are usually your friends, someone who will give in return when you need their help. I found out,i thought i had friends, but they were just using me. As soon as the free stuff ended so did our friendship. That was years ago, so i am wiser now.Helping people here in the forum is different than at home life. Here you don't have to answer a question if you don't want to, or answer when you can. I usually help all i can while limiting myself, so I can spend time with the people that are most important in my life, and that is my family. I see your point, but this site is for everyone who agrees with the rules set forth. I too have struggled to get where i am at, wherever that might be on the scale of 1 to 10.

[CanonHPTech]

Let me just clarify, that I don't agree with making this site a tech-to-tech only site. But let me just say the following:

There will always be new/inexperienced techs that will have a first shaky day in front of the customer.
There will always be simple techs who do not want to know how to, nor do they care to learn how to operate what they are working on.
There will always be hit-and-run techs that do the minimum work.
There will always be thorough techs that take too long and spend too much on contract machines.
There will always be a spend-thrift tech who picks customers trash, drives around the block 3 times to find a parking meter with time on it, and calls his brother-in-law who is a mechanic to get ideas of how to fix an annoying problem on their 1981 Buick Regal with 185K miles on it.

But,

There will always be new/inexperienced users who will be the new guy who doesn't know how to make a copy.
There always be the simple user who does not want to know how to operate the unit they have in their office, but uses their fists and feet to remove jams.
There will always be the know-it-all users who think they know more than the tech.
There will always be thorough users who will have a laundry list of items and ask a notebook worth of questions about a machine that they have had for 4 years to be more efficient and get their moneys worth out of their purchase.
There will always be spend-thrift users who feel as though their companies money is there own money, argue until they get free service, and ask you questions or too look at a copier or printer that is not under contract, they bought from Staples for $100, put basement drill-and-fill toner cartridges in, don't care spend even $50 to fix it but will bother you about it every time you speak to them at your cost of $50 per hour.

Thus is life. If you want reward for doing a thankless job- then go and work on a line for Nabisco and you will get free cookies.

[costd]

For my 2 cents; Although I am a "certified" tech, I am new at this and have quite a few questions - some that are DOH!!. Perhaps that is why I am ready to assist anyone that asks -HOWEVER - I do/will not respond to requests for service/parts manuals or "tech only" form/website passwords. Any manual that is available as a free download is ok - but if it is only available on a charge basis, then my providing it via a free copy is not right.

Assistance is assistance. Stealing/theft is not assistance.

Your milage may vary....