Results 1 to 10 of 10
  1. #1
    Senior Tech 100+ Posts
    Getting Electrical Outlet In Your Storage Facility - No Outlets/generators allowed!

    chrisban35's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Vienna, VA
    Posts
    200
    Rep Power
    31

    Lightbulb Getting Electrical Outlet In Your Storage Facility - No Outlets/generators allowed!

    Ok, I'm a small dealer and I don't have any office space. What I do have is an environmentally controlled storage facility. A nice 16' x 10' unit. What's missing however, is an electrical outlet. The storage facility really frowns on you doing actual work there, and I'm not wanting to really establish a work environment there either. However, what I WOULD like to accomplish is to be able to turn a machine on, test it really quick once I replace a needed part, or getting it ready for delivery, jut to make sure its still working correctly, or the repair fixed the issue..

    Now the challenge! NO GENERATORS ALLOWED! This was exactly how the term was written upon my request to the storage facility. So, I got to thinking about how I could pull off something that would work, yet wouldn't resemble a generator. Here is the idea, and I want your feedback on the "idea" not something like switch places, use my garage, yada yada... Thanks!

    I want to take two truck batteries, which I already have, and connect them in parallel. Thus boosting the amps and energy storage without boosting the voltage. Then I wanted to use a Power Inverter to plug in the machine. Most of the equipment I test will be 50ppm to 25ppm units. I think maybe a couple will be on a 20amp but for the most part, the standard 15 amp should suffice.

    Anyway, the inverters I want to consider: What is the general consensus about how many watts I would need?? I am looking at one of three inverters and would like your input...

    1.) 2000 watt continuous/4000 watt peak
    2.) 3000 watt continuous/6000 watt peak
    3.) 5000 watt continuous/10000 watt peak

    Second question. With only two truck batteries "Interstate Batteries Model 1000 CCA Product ID 31-XHD" What should I expect as far as time it will last before charging is required? Any thoughts? I can also add a third battery if necessary, but right now I am going to just rig a cart (country finesse) using this stock number at Harbor Freight Tools - www.harborfreight.com - Item Number 61930 - "16 In. x 30 In.Two Shelf Industrial Polypropylene Service Cart". I'll put the batteries in the bottom of the cart and have the inverter in the top. Also, I can still have room to keep a small tool box in the upper section.

    What is your thoughts on this type of "country finessed" solution for running a copier in a NO GENERATOR ALLOWED zone? Thanks in advance for any suggestive ideas you might have or feedback on this possible solution....

  2. #2
    Master Of The Obvious 10,000+ Posts
    Getting Electrical Outlet In Your Storage Facility - No Outlets/generators allowed!

    blackcat4866's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Lapeer, Michigan
    Posts
    22,444
    Rep Power
    462

    Re: Getting Electrical Outlet In Your Storage Facility - No Outlets/generators allowe

    How close can you get your vehicle? Close enough to run an extension cord?

    The inverters you are describing are designed to be supported by an automotive alternator/battery system. For the best results I would find out if your current alternator can support two batteries, if not upgrade to a larger alternator. Mount a second battery in your vehicle, connected in parallel like you suggest. Connect the inverter.

    The formula is pretty simple: P=IV
    Watts = Amps x Volts

    Here in the USA, for a 15A load you'll need 1800 watts.
    Most of the machines that require 20A service actually draw no more than 16A, so you'd need 1920 watts.

    Of your choices, any would do, but I personally would go for the 3000W inverter, for a little extra capacity.

    The key here is you ability to get your vehicle close enough to run an extension cord, and to keep the engine running. At 1800W your batteries will deplete pretty quickly without the help of the alternator.

    Additionally, you'll lose power to the extension cord (as heat), so the longer the cord, the larger the wire you'll want. Youl'll need a minimum of 12gg wire. I'd probably upgrade to 10gg.

    I've mentally worked out the logistics of this setup a long time ago, and even ordered the inverter from Harbor Freight, but they never delivered after 4 months, and I took a refund and gave up. An additional benefit is that you can run the machines for as long as you like (or as long as you can leave your vehicle parked and running nearby).

    Let me know how it goes. =^..^=
    If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
    1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
    2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
    3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
    4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
    5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

    blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

  3. #3
    Retired 10,000+ Posts
    Getting Electrical Outlet In Your Storage Facility - No Outlets/generators allowed!

    slimslob's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Bakersfield, CA
    Posts
    34,128
    Rep Power
    989

    Re: Getting Electrical Outlet In Your Storage Facility - No Outlets/generators allowe

    I am with cat. What you have to consider, for every amp that the load is going to pull, you will be drawing a little over 10 amps from the battery. For a 15 amp machine that could be a peak of 150 amps being drawn from the battery. The Interstate Batteries Model 1000 CCA Product ID 31-XHD battery appears to have the cold cranking to handle the peak but I am not sure how quickly it would taper off. Hate to have you blown a board by having the line voltage suddenly drop.

    You might check with the facility on the no generator policy. I have seen some where the policy is no generators inside the buildings, but will allow you to set one up a certain distance away from the building. This is especially true if your storage unit has a garage type door. You are allowed to use a trailer or pickup mounted generator outside the door of the unit. There usually are additional requirements as far as fire extinguishers and other safety equipment.

  4. #4
    Not a service manager 2,500+ Posts Iowatech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    3,933
    Rep Power
    97

    Re: Getting Electrical Outlet In Your Storage Facility - No Outlets/generators allowe

    I'm with blackcat and slimslob with this - that's really your best bet.
    Still, I'm curious, did they tell you why generators aren't allowed?
    If it is a noise issue, a good muffler shop could install a motorcycle or car muffler that should reduce the racket. Or as long as there is sufficient airflow for the generator, a noise reducing enclosure might work.

  5. #5
    Field Supervisor 500+ Posts
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Kampala, Uganda
    Posts
    860
    Rep Power
    40

    Re: Getting Electrical Outlet In Your Storage Facility - No Outlets/generators allowe

    I totally agree with all previous contributors to this thread. May I add that you should buy a 'pure sine wave inverter' as this has very little 'harmonic distortion' resulting in a 'very clean' supply! Other types of inverters such as the 'MSI...Modified(Quasi) sine wave inverters produce a rougher output sine wave or the 'Square wave inverters though much cheaper, has a square output. These won't help you.

    The choice of a 3000 watt continuous\6000 watt peak is technically wise, as you have to take into considerations other losses such as ambient temperature and general losses due to mechanics, age and wear etc. Also bear in mind that an inverter will have an average efficiency rating of between 85% to 95%, so if we use 'blackcat's method' based on US power, we could have something like:

    Taking a 25% extra to accommodate future expansion: 25% of 1920watts= 480watts, add this to 1920w and you get 2400watts; so you need a continuous supply of 2400w RMS.
    Assuming inverter efficiency of 90%, this figure must be multiplied by some factor of 1.1 (called a form factor or peak factor) to work out the 100% we originally fed into the inverter to attain the 90% out, i.e 90%*1.1=99%

    Therefore, 2400W*1.1= 2640W is the required continuous power. An inverter of 3000W IS a good choice, it also has a good surge rating of 6000W, a good starting load.

    Have you thought of installing a Solar power system as an alternative? Its expensive initially but cheaper in
    the long run, that is if you are to lease that place for some years.

  6. #6
    Senior Tech 100+ Posts
    Getting Electrical Outlet In Your Storage Facility - No Outlets/generators allowed!

    chrisban35's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Vienna, VA
    Posts
    200
    Rep Power
    31

    Thumbs up Re: Getting Electrical Outlet In Your Storage Facility - No Outlets/generators allowe

    AWESOME feedback guys!! Thanks!

    The policy for no generators is more about keeping you from working in the storage as well as safety related issues. I'm being very diplomatic about my approach in asking them for any kind of a set up as I think everything would be frowned upon that allowed me to work in the building... Secondly, the storage units are "inside" so I actually have to walk in the building, around a corner and then all the doors are inside facing doors down a long hallway.

    I understand about the batteries. I wonder how many I would have to put together in order to have at least 30 minutes running time? Would 4 or 6 batteries do it? Cranking amps, does relate to watts peaked, and I'm sure that putting 3 to 5 batteries in parallel would produce more than enough amps to control even a peak 6000 watts pull. Again, I'm assuming, but I would imagine 4 batteries would easily handle that.

    I appreciate the math calculations that you guys did. I wonder if there is also a "formula" to determine roughly what amount of time there is for each battery? based upon say a normal 3,000 watt sustainable consistency. That would also help me in determining which batteries I would buy and how many.

    If I need to, I can upgrade to airplane batteries, or fork lift batteries which are very wide and a lot more sustainable amps... If you have any recommendations, please post them here... And thanks again for the time you put into this thread..

  7. #7
    Senior Tech 100+ Posts
    Getting Electrical Outlet In Your Storage Facility - No Outlets/generators allowed!

    chrisban35's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Vienna, VA
    Posts
    200
    Rep Power
    31

    Thumbs up Re: Getting Electrical Outlet In Your Storage Facility - No Outlets/generators allowe

    Great advice! I did wonder just how "efficient" or "clean" these inverters were. Your contribution definitely tells me I need to be very aware!

    I will make sure that I check into the pure sine wave versus any non-filtered inverter. You're right, the last thing I want to do is blow a board, or have the machine give me anomalous errors because the energy source is dirty. I will need to certainly figure out a great strategy and also find a way to make this process "repeatable" without causing the electrolytes to get stuck to the cells and killing that cell. I was an F&E specialist in the Army and repaired Lead Batteries, so very familiar with a lot of the battery related issues when drawing heavy loads, then recharging them....

    What I would really like to do is determine some formula on how long each battery can last, using some comparison with total battery amps. And then determining a breakdown of the loss of amps between the parallel connections of batteries. Also, I know that just one dead cell in ANY of the batteries greatly reduces the overall efficiency and sustainable power from all the batteries as well....




    Quote Originally Posted by DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS View Post
    I totally agree with all previous contributors to this thread. May I add that you should buy a 'pure sine wave inverter' as this has very little 'harmonic distortion' resulting in a 'very clean' supply! Other types of inverters such as the 'MSI...Modified(Quasi) sine wave inverters produce a rougher output sine wave or the 'Square wave inverters though much cheaper, has a square output. These won't help you.

    The choice of a 3000 watt continuous\6000 watt peak is technically wise, as you have to take into considerations other losses such as ambient temperature and general losses due to mechanics, age and wear etc. Also bear in mind that an inverter will have an average efficiency rating of between 85% to 95%, so if we use 'blackcat's method' based on US power, we could have something like:

    Taking a 25% extra to accommodate future expansion: 25% of 1920watts= 480watts, add this to 1920w and you get 2400watts; so you need a continuous supply of 2400w RMS.
    Assuming inverter efficiency of 90%, this figure must be multiplied by some factor of 1.1 (called a form factor or peak factor) to work out the 100% we originally fed into the inverter to attain the 90% out, i.e 90%*1.1=99%

    Therefore, 2400W*1.1= 2640W is the required continuous power. An inverter of 3000W IS a good choice, it also has a good surge rating of 6000W, a good starting load.

    Have you thought of installing a Solar power system as an alternative? Its expensive initially but cheaper in
    the long run, that is if you are to lease that place for some years.

  8. #8
    Not a service manager 2,500+ Posts Iowatech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    3,933
    Rep Power
    97

    Re: Getting Electrical Outlet In Your Storage Facility - No Outlets/generators allowe

    While the industrial batteries you listed would be sufficient, I'd like to throw one more type of battery into the mix in case it would help. That would be the ones used for powering the trolling motors on bass boats, or marine (deep cycle) batteries. From what I remember, they are designed to tolerate being discharged more completely than other lead-acid batteries.
    On the other hand, I seem to remember that they were pretty small, and as such may not produce the current you need for the price of the other batteries.
    Still, something to consider.

  9. #9
    Trusted Tech 50+ Posts
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    51
    Rep Power
    35

    Re: Getting Electrical Outlet In Your Storage Facility - No Outlets/generators allowe

    May want to check around I found a inside storage unit and for $15.00 extra mine has light and one outlet. The lease agreement was very specific as to what type of work could be preformed. Don't recall all details but to plug in and tested or vacuum was ok .

  10. #10
    Field Supervisor 500+ Posts
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Kampala, Uganda
    Posts
    860
    Rep Power
    40

    Re: Getting Electrical Outlet In Your Storage Facility - No Outlets/generators allowe

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisban35 View Post
    Great advice! I did wonder just how "efficient" or "clean" these inverters were. Your contribution definitely tells me I need to be very aware!

    I will make sure that I check into the pure sine wave versus any non-filtered inverter. You're right, the last thing I want to do is blow a board, or have the machine give me anomalous errors because the energy source is dirty. I will need to certainly figure out a great strategy and also find a way to make this process "repeatable" without causing the electrolytes to get stuck to the cells and killing that cell. I was an F&E specialist in the Army and repaired Lead Batteries, so very familiar with a lot of the battery related issues when drawing heavy loads, then recharging them....

    What I would really like to do is determine some formula on how long each battery can last, using some comparison with total battery amps. And then determining a breakdown of the loss of amps between the parallel connections of batteries. Also, I know that just one dead cell in ANY of the batteries greatly reduces the overall efficiency and sustainable power from all the batteries as well....
    It would be difficult from a distance, to go into the specifics of how you are to set up your power supply system. But since in your own words you are a specialist in batteries, I believe you must be conversant with the following battery terminologies:
    -Battery capacity in Amp hour (Ah)
    -Current drawn in Amps (I)
    -Time taken in hours (H)
    -Power in Watts (W),
    -Voltage of power source (V).
    Opting for a deep cycle battery such as Marine battery or that of a Forklift truck though expensive is a good idea. The latter has a good discharge capacity of up to 80% ,compared to Marine's 50%.
    You must also factor in the inverter losses into the equation when choosing type of battery.

    To work out the power you can get out of your battery, you can use the following equation:
    -Battery Capacity (Ah) = Current in Amps(I) * Time (H)

    You need to also establish the current drawn by your system: I = P/V (Amps) e.g 2400W/12V = 200A.
    (Assumed your Battery voltage as power source is 12V). So your BATTERY CAPACITY in Ah would need to be:
    Battery Capacity(Ah) = Current drawn(A) * Time (H) = 200 *30/60 = 100 Ah .....(30min./60min.= 1/2 hr). That means you would need 200Ah of Battery to do the job! You could achieve this with TWO 100Ah. 0f 12volts.

    NB: Consider the above just as a Guideline!!!!

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Get the Android App
click or scan for the Copytechnet Mobile App

-= -= -= -= -=


IDrive Remote Backup

Lunarpages Internet Solutions

Advertise on Copytechnet

Your Link Here