Ricoh aficio MP4000b dirty copies and backside very dirty

[Imprestik]

Re: Ricoh aficio MP4000b dirty copies and backside very dirty

I can see doing that with a production machine in order to keep customer downtime to a minimum. Someone still has to rebuild those FRU and TCRU kits.

Nop no one rebuild them, they get sent to the recyclers for be made scrap out of.

Clearly pricing here compared to the states is completely different, maybe due to freight, I honestly don't know to be honest. I do know Ricoh as a whole base their pricing in US currency no matter what region of the world you come from.

But I know some bean counter has done analysis here and it has worked out way more expensive to rebuild each individual part rather than replacing them with new Kits, I know this for a fact as this is what we are told and I'm pretty sure it comes down to labor costs as well.

[Imprestik]

Re: Ricoh aficio MP4000b dirty copies and backside very dirty

The only other I have seen the terms A Kit ans B Kit are the TCRU kits for certain Production models and the field replacement units.

As a reference which is universal to the world, the SP8200 comes with a Kit A and Kit B as listed on the box

Kit A refers to the PCU and developer connected as 1 unit, part number 402960 which is a straight fit into the MP4000/5000

Kit B refers to the transfer unit, fuser and web units, now pending where you are in the world part number 402961 is 110V and 402962 is 220V

I suggest you research the price for the SP8300 Kit A, part number 407057 again which is a PCU and development unit which is a straight fit into a MP4000/5000 and rather than taking over a hour as mentioned to rebuild both units, is a 5 minute fit, just run the development initialize and ID sensor and off you go

Either way it's up to you as the individual or the organization you work for to do the cost analysis, but I can tell you 100% the Kits are they way to go

[sturmtrooper]

Re: Ricoh aficio MP4000b dirty copies and backside very dirty

I suggest you research the price for the SP8300 Kit A, part number 407057 again which is a PCU and development unit which is a straight fit into a MP4000/5000 and rather than taking over a hour as mentioned to rebuild both units, is a 5 minute fit, just run the development initialize and ID sensor and off you go

Either way it's up to you as the individual or the organization you work for to do the cost analysis, but I can tell you 100% the Kits are they way to go

The prices I posted were direct from Ricoh USA to us as a dealer. Like I said, it's about a $400USD price difference between the rebuild box and developer and using the SP8300 kits.

So for it to make economic sense I'd have to be getting paid north of $100 per hour, which sadly is no where near reality.

How much is your company paying for these and are they getting them from Ricoh or some third party?

[Imprestik]

Re: Ricoh aficio MP4000b dirty copies and backside very dirty

The prices I posted were direct from Ricoh USA to us as a dealer. Like I said, it's about a $400USD price difference between the rebuild box and developer and using the SP8300 kits.

So for it to make economic sense I'd have to be getting paid north of $100 per hour, which sadly is no where near reality.

How much is your company paying for these and are they getting them from Ricoh or some third party?

That's the key word here "Dealer"

I work for Ricoh Direct, I do not work for a dealer that's why your pricing is more expensive, Ricoh Direct USA I'm sure makes a cut of everything they sell to their dealer network. It would be interesting to know what the mark up is actually

[sturmtrooper]

Re: Ricoh aficio MP4000b dirty copies and backside very dirty

That's the key word here "Dealer"

I work for Ricoh Direct, I do not work for a dealer that's why your pricing is more expensive, Ricoh Direct USA I'm sure makes a cut of everything they sell to their dealer network. It would be interesting to know what the mark up is actually

While I don't doubt there is a markup to dealers I doubt it is a 100% markup. It's also very possible that you are billed the same cost as a dealer would be to keep Ricoh in compliance with laws against anti-competitive practices.

Do you actually know what you are charged for the part or are you just going on the word of someone above you?

[qbert69]

Re: Ricoh aficio MP4000b dirty copies and backside very dirty

If these machines are the same style as the Savin 9040/9050 they run good, until they DON'T!!! Coated mag rollers is a symptom of Ricoh Toner. NA Trading has a replacement toner specifically engineered to remedy this very problem! Ricoh always overengineers their machines which almost always turns to shite or becomes a total service money pit on rebuilds which when done in uncontrolled conditions are prone to human error! The company I work for was originally savin/ricoh, then the owners retired and a Konica-Minolta dealer purchased us. It's like the difference between night & day regarding the engineering differences between KMBS & Ricoh! Fortunately we have the inventory of clearance Konica-Minolta machines so we are able to help upgrade the customer or do a service exchange! Of an interesting note, Konica-Minolta makes Planetarium Optics!!![emoji15]🤯

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[slimslob]

Re: Ricoh aficio MP4000b dirty copies and backside very dirty

If these machines are the same style as the Savin 9040/9050 they run good, until they DON'T!!! Coated mag rollers is a symptom of Ricoh Toner. NA Trading has a replacement toner specifically engineered to remedy this very problem! Ricoh always overengineers their machines which almost always turns to shite or becomes a total service money pit on rebuilds which when done in uncontrolled conditions are prone to human error! The company I work for was originally savin/ricoh, then the owners retired and a Konica-Minolta dealer purchased us. It's like the difference between night & day regarding the engineering differences between KMBS & Ricoh! Fortunately we have the inventory of clearance Konica-Minolta machines so we are able to help upgrade the customer or do a service exchange! Of an interesting note, Konica-Minolta makes Planetarium Optics!!![emoji15]��

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A Savin 9040 is a Ricoh MP 4000 with a Savin name on it.

[Imprestik]

Re: Ricoh aficio MP4000b dirty copies and backside very dirty

While I don't doubt there is a markup to dealers I doubt it is a 100% markup. It's also very possible that you are billed the same cost as a dealer would be to keep Ricoh in compliance with laws against anti-competitive practices.

Do you actually know what you are charged for the part or are you just going on the word of someone above you?

I know 100% we do not pay the price of a dealer but I do not know what the mark up is. I know the exact cost of any part I order and I also know the exact cost of what the customer get charged for that part. I do not want to go into costs and % they make as a organization as this is a public forum and anyone has access to this information. In saying this I do not care what the cost is to the customer as 98% of my clients are on a service agreement so they don't pay for parts unless the device has been misused which doesn't fall under their service agreement.

All I can advise you of is I know here where I am, every single part is analyzed as a complete unit vs rebuild cost. Both contain labor times of fitting a complete unit vs rebuilding it as well. Here is a example I went through recently.

We were analyzing the Charis C2 fusing unit. Now after getting the price of a complete fuser vs all the parts required to rebuild the fuser completely as we don't do things half arsed around here, the parts costs alone was surprising to say the least. It was $45 cheaper to order all the individual PM bits for the fuser compared to ordering the entire fuser with IH coil fitted.

Now why the hell would you bother rebuilding a Charis C2 fuser when it clearly states in the manual its a 5 hour job and over 400 steps to rebuild correctly to the manuals specifications?

Basic math would state that it would be heaps more expensive to rebuild it rather than replace it as a complete unit correct? Customer satisfaction also plays its part as we are able to do the maintenance with minimal downtime to the client.

Now in saying this parts costs fluctuate a hell of a lot. One day you may save over $200 so its worth rebuilding but the next month it may be only a $50 saving so is it worth rebuilding? This is why we analyze every PM part and make sure it is feasible to rebuild or just chuck out and replace with new.

Either way the dealer vs direct argument will always happen, but you work to what your management require as I do with my management

[qbert69]

Re: Ricoh aficio MP4000b dirty copies and backside very dirty

I know 100% we do not pay the price of a dealer but I do not know what the mark up is. I know the exact cost of any part I order and I also know the exact cost of what the customer get charged for that part. I do not want to go into costs and % they make as a organization as this is a public forum and anyone has access to this information. In saying this I do not care what the cost is to the customer as 98% of my clients are on a service agreement so they don't pay for parts unless the device has been misused which doesn't fall under their service agreement.

All I can advise you of is I know here where I am, every single part is analyzed as a complete unit vs rebuild cost. Both contain labor times of fitting a complete unit vs rebuilding it as well. Here is a example I went through recently.

We were analyzing the Charis C2 fusing unit. Now after getting the price of a complete fuser vs all the parts required to rebuild the fuser completely as we don't do things half arsed around here, the parts costs alone was surprising to say the least. It was $45 cheaper to order all the individual PM bits for the fuser compared to ordering the entire fuser with IH coil fitted.

Now why the hell would you bother rebuilding a Charis C2 fuser when it clearly states in the manual its a 5 hour job and over 400 steps to rebuild correctly to the manuals specifications?

Basic math would state that it would be heaps more expensive to rebuild it rather than replace it as a complete unit correct? Customer satisfaction also plays its part as we are able to do the maintenance with minimal downtime to the client.

Now in saying this parts costs fluctuate a hell of a lot. One day you may save over $200 so its worth rebuilding but the next month it may be only a $50 saving so is it worth rebuilding? This is why we analyze every PM part and make sure it is feasible to rebuild or just chuck out and replace with new.

Either way the dealer vs direct argument will always happen, but you work to what your management require as I do with my management

Problem is, when it's a rebuild, ricoh is "off the hook" for device failure--plausible deniability for technician's failure to rebuild correctly!!! ZERO warranty backup!!! Other companies (kyocera) have warranty on unit failure before yield is reached! For example, every fuser is serialized & tracked in database, so if failure happens, Kyocera wants to know, replace part under warranty and correct the inherent design flaw. You won't see that happening with Ricoh's total shit designs!!! For example, an MP6001 dev unit rear seal fails and dumps developer out the back...well, that developer is going to ruin every paper feed unit below it that it directly falls upon!!! If Ricoh had noticed this and put a SIMPLE metal shield plate between the dev & feed units the problem would be COMPLETELY avoided!!!

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[slimslob]

Re: Ricoh aficio MP4000b dirty copies and backside very dirty

The prices I posted were direct from Ricoh USA to us as a dealer. Like I said, it's about a $400USD price difference between the rebuild box and developer and using the SP8300 kits.

So for it to make economic sense I'd have to be getting paid north of $100 per hour, which sadly is no where near reality.

How much is your company paying for these and are they getting them from Ricoh or some third party?

Do you mean that they almost give the SP8300 kits away? The last price I have for the PMD009320K PM parts kit is $470.09. Are you sure you are not comparing resale prices?

[Imprestik]

Re: Ricoh aficio MP4000b dirty copies and backside very dirty

Problem is, when it's a rebuild, ricoh is "off the hook" for device failure--plausible deniability for technician's failure to rebuild correctly!!! ZERO warranty backup!!! Other companies (kyocera) have warranty on unit failure before yield is reached! For example, every fuser is serialized & tracked in database, so if failure happens, Kyocera wants to know, replace part under warranty and correct the inherent design flaw. You won't see that happening with Ricoh's total shit designs!!! For example, an MP6001 dev unit rear seal fails and dumps developer out the back...well, that developer is going to ruin every paper feed unit below it that it directly falls upon!!! If Ricoh had noticed this and put a SIMPLE metal shield plate between the dev & feed units the problem would be COMPLETELY avoided!!!

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OK in regards to your Kyocera warranty, I will presume they also have a standard as Ricoh has for every part?

What I mean by this is Ricoh value every unit as a A4 sheet (metric measurment) at 6% coverage (which is a full page of text)

Now do Kyocera do the same thing in regards to this. Again I will presume they would as I have never worked for Kyocera so I do not know.

So if a client is lets say doing 10% coverage clearly you are going to get less life out of that component in question correct? Now this component has clearly failed early, how do you expect anyone to give warranty on any item if it is doing more than it's supposed to?

What I think you are trying to say is you seem to think Ricoh knows about issues but refuses to fix them.

Now in regards to the dev unit you have used. I have been a Ricoh employee for over 10 years and I have never scene a dev unit seal blow out early. I replace the entire dev unit every 2 million impressions no matter what the condition. Why you ask, because it's called preventative maintenance and I know that device will be good for another 2 million.

Now with the shield you mention. In theory, yes it's a great idea, but what other issue will arise.

I would think the following would most likely happen,

1. Dev will build up behind the duplex unit and most likely take out the duplex unit of not spotted early enough. I know I would rather replace 3 feed stations than 1 duplex unit as cost would be much lower on the feed stations
2. Dev would most likely spill under the rego unit and into the following boards, paper feed board, power supply unit. Now I would think if dev started to fall onto a live power supply unit I'm pretty sure theirs a fire in the making, please correct me if I'm wrong.....

I don't think you realize the dev unit needs to be pressurized for it to preform its job and general theory will suggest anything under pressure will eventually blow and leak no mater what mechanical item you talk about. It's your job as the technician to make a educated decision and go, look i think it will go one more dev change or no, I will replace it now. The dev unit is not a design flaw as you mention it, the dev unit is a preventative maintenance item which technicians seem to over look time and time again.

[qbert69]

Re: Ricoh aficio MP4000b dirty copies and backside very dirty

OK in regards to your Kyocera warranty, I will presume they also have a standard as Ricoh has for every part?

What I mean by this is Ricoh value every unit as a A4 sheet (metric measurment) at 6% coverage (which is a full page of text)

Now do Kyocera do the same thing in regards to this. Again I will presume they would as I have never worked for Kyocera so I do not know.

So if a client is lets say doing 10% coverage clearly you are going to get less life out of that component in question correct? Now this component has clearly failed early, how do you expect anyone to give warranty on any item if it is doing more than it's supposed to?

What I think you are trying to say is you seem to think Ricoh knows about issues but refuses to fix them.

Now in regards to the dev unit you have used. I have been a Ricoh employee for over 10 years and I have never scene a dev unit seal blow out early. I replace the entire dev unit every 2 million impressions no matter what the condition. Why you ask, because it's called preventative maintenance and I know that device will be good for another 2 million.

Now with the shield you mention. In theory, yes it's a great idea, but what other issue will arise.

I would think the following would most likely happen,

1. Dev will build up behind the duplex unit and most likely take out the duplex unit of not spotted early enough. I know I would rather replace 3 feed stations than 1 duplex unit as cost would be much lower on the feed stations
2. Dev would most likely spill under the rego unit and into the following boards, paper feed board, power supply unit. Now I would think if dev started to fall onto a live power supply unit I'm pretty sure theirs a fire in the making, please correct me if I'm wrong.....

I don't think you realize the dev unit needs to be pressurized for it to preform its job and general theory will suggest anything under pressure will eventually blow and leak no mater what mechanical item you talk about. It's your job as the technician to make a educated decision and go, look i think it will go one more dev change or no, I will replace it now. The dev unit is not a design flaw as you mention it, the dev unit is a preventative maintenance item which technicians seem to over look time and time again.

Most of the dev unit I've seen blow out around the 1.5 mil mark, not 2 mil as you mention! The Kyocera drum units are made of amorphous silicon which is I believe as stated about 98% the hardness of a diamond & supposed to be rated at 600k before replacement based I believe on a 5-6% coverage. The only weak link being the charge rollers which I've had to replace any where from 80 to 120k. About the dev unit pressure on Ricoh, I try to vacuum out the dev unit filters every time I visit a machine! I haven't worked on any newer Ricoh color machines but the annoyance for me was piddly crap design such as using a toner pump and pumping the toner 3/4 of the way through the machine via a pencil size hose just to get to the dev unit when they could have put the toner bottle directly over the dev unit and auger into a sub-hopper before going into the dev unit. Another gripe is the cheapo foam gathering rollers used on the finishers (SR790 and such) that degrade & fall apart. Just piddly engineering shit that has not been improved!!!

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[slimslob]

Re: Ricoh aficio MP4000b dirty copies and backside very dirty

For example, an MP6001 dev unit rear seal fails and dumps developer out the back...well, that developer is going to ruin every paper feed unit below it that it directly falls upon!!! If Ricoh had noticed this and put a SIMPLE metal shield plate between the dev & feed units the problem would be COMPLETELY avoided!!!

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First of all the MP 4000B is a totally different beast than the MP 6001. I developer does work past the rear seal on a 4000B it will cause the paddle shaft to bind and give a main motor lock error. Yes I have heard of 6001 and other high volume models with toner/developer on the first feed station but have never had it myself even on machines with over 2M. The one way gears will start to fail around 1M.

[sturmtrooper]

1Re: Ricoh aficio MP4000b dirty copies and backside very dirty

Do you mean that they almost give the SP8300 kits away? The last price I have for the PMD009320K PM parts kit is $470.09. Are you sure you are not comparing resale prices?

No, like I said before, dealer cost for us for both the A and B SP8300 kits together is like $800, cost for the PMD009 160/320k kit and a bag of developer is around $400.

So that's about a 100% difference in cost.

[Imprestik]

Re: Ricoh aficio MP4000b dirty copies and backside very dirty

Most of the dev unit I've seen blow out around the 1.5 mil mark, not 2 mil as you mention! The Kyocera drum units are made of amorphous silicon which is I believe as stated about 98% the hardness of a diamond & supposed to be rated at 600k before replacement based I believe on a 5-6% coverage. The only weak link being the charge rollers which I've had to replace any where from 80 to 120k. About the dev unit pressure on Ricoh, I try to vacuum out the dev unit filters every time I visit a machine! I haven't worked on any newer Ricoh color machines but the annoyance for me was piddly crap design such as using a toner pump and pumping the toner 3/4 of the way through the machine via a pencil size hose just to get to the dev unit when they could have put the toner bottle directly over the dev unit and auger into a sub-hopper before going into the dev unit. Another gripe is the cheapo foam gathering rollers used on the finishers (SR790 and such) that degrade & fall apart. Just piddly engineering shit that has not been improved!!!

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Each to their own with dev units, but replacing filters is a far better option then vacuuming it, I don't or wont understand why techs vacuum out filters. They are the cheapest part of any copier maintenance and always get overlooked but play 1 of the most important parts in a copier, anyway.....

In regards to toner pumps, don't even go there, that technology is over 7 years old and has been rectified by gravity feed system now so you have no leg to stand on there

Sponge rollers are part of the preventative maintenance so again, parts you should be carrying in the back of your car like tray rollers and document feeder parts that get changed as regularly as them, again no leg to stand on.....

Devices need to have weaknesses, otherwise no one here would be employed.

I'm sure you have heard of Rizo graphs? Ever wondered why they went bust? Maybe because they over engineered the crap out of them and they never broke down which meant no servicing which also meant to revenue which means bust over a long period of time. I look after a lot of schools which still have Rizo's that are 30 years + old just chugging away with not 1 breakdown in that time just printing out flyers and things like that, only issue users have is the aftermarket master they buy doesn't work as well.....

I'm sure you understand the point, either way get your hands on some of Ricoh's newer technology and I'm sure you wont be so negative about it all

If you still are, just wait for the 5 series colour devices to come out, then I'm sure you wont have anything to whinge about if what I'm told is true about them, most of us wont be in a job for much longer.....