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reckless
03-09-2017, 07:59 AM
I would love to hear some real world feedback for people who have experience with minolta BW production systems. Do you have a maintenance contract on it or is it not worth it?

I am not a mechanic and have never worked on a minolta printer. I am considering not having a maintenance contract on a Bizhub 1200.

Toners, drum and developers all are pretty cheap off ebay. The impression I am getting is the bw engines are extremely robust and almost industrial grade. I am more worried about paper jams on the PF-702. I am using 75-90 gsm paper 6x9" size.

I have read online where people never had to any service for over 1 million clicks. I can call a copier mechanic to repair if the thing goes down, but it doesn't make sense to call them every month/quarter. Better off putting the copier under a maintenance contract.

Any thoughts/opinions from a seasoned professional are greatly appreciated.

freginold
03-09-2017, 03:35 PM
No experience with Minolta production machines, just Ricoh, but in general I would recommend a service contract for 2 reasons:

#1: Once you add up the cost that you'd pay for toner, developer, drums, fuser parts, etc. it's probably not a significant difference from the cost of the maintenance contract. (Of course, this varies by company.)

#2: Especially with production machines, a service contract is nice because it (generally) gives you a guaranteed response time. If you just call a local repair company when something breaks, they may not be able to get to you in the time frame that you need.

reckless
03-09-2017, 03:49 PM
Thanks for the feedback. CPC on a 1051 are running $0.0075 since it is 7 years old. Multiply that by 1M copies it is $7500. Cost for toner, developer, drums, fuser parts is running $1,000 for 1M copies. $6500 is a huge difference IMO. The way I have heard these machines being described as being indestructible and solid makes me think it won't require $6500 in service. But maybe I am over simplifying things.

freginold
03-09-2017, 03:55 PM
If those numbers are right, then I'd agree, that's not worth it if you don't think you'll need service very often. Just make sure that you're taking into account all of the consumable parts that would otherwise be covered under a service contract: feed rollers, all the different subsystems (developer, drum, fuser, transfer), filters, etc.

If the price difference is that drastic and you can get your hands on a copy of the service manual (for routine maintenance procedures) I'd say you're right, it may not be worth it for the service contract.

Albonline
03-09-2017, 04:23 PM
these units are tough and reliable but can be very costly to fix if something major fails, and also demanding when it comes to doing maintenance work properly, there are things that are not covered in the service manual, and firmware updates to take into consideration. also consider the quality of the stuff you would be getting from ebay. bottom line is how important is it that the printer works good and stays working when needed.


good luck.

reckless
03-09-2017, 05:24 PM
How costly can it be? And how often do they have issues?

I'm buying the unit for $3,000 + $3,000 for perfect binder. Even if I get 1 million prints and had to replace the whole unit, I still save $3500 that is if I get 1M prints.

What are the most expensive parts on these machines?

freginold
03-09-2017, 06:26 PM
these units are tough and reliable but can be very costly to fix if something major fails, and also demanding when it comes to doing maintenance work properly, there are things that are not covered in the service manual, and firmware updates to take into consideration. also consider the quality of the stuff you would be getting from ebay. bottom line is how important is it that the printer works good and stays working when needed.


good luck.

I assumed when you said you were getting the parts and toner from eBay that you meant genuine OEM parts. If you're buying compatible/third-party parts and toner, I would strongly recommend staying away from them, no matter how cheap. I've rarely had compatible parts or supplies be worth the savings. Either they fail prematurely (and you may or may not be able to get them replaced under a warranty) or they cause all sorts of weird issues that make troubleshooting the problem even harder. That can be more of an issue with color machines, but with b&w machines I'd tend to stay away from them too.

reckless
03-09-2017, 06:56 PM
Thanks for the advice, I plan to stick to genuine OEM parts. Toners are available for cheap.

allan
03-09-2017, 06:58 PM
I would never recommend a machine of that class without a contract. One wrong move on it and your pretty figures is down the drain. Suffer electronic damage and you will be prayed upon.
Being in the industry we see 200% plus profit coming if you need any OEM only parts. Any PM service can be stretched out to 5 hour plus, at production tech rates.
It is robust yes but so fragile...

tech51
03-09-2017, 07:10 PM
I assume the machine is used. In which case how many prints does it have on it already? All machines tend to need increased maintenance as they age, which may be beyond you as a non technical person. That's when you will need a fully trained & experienced technician who as access to all of the non standard parts that can wear or break. In my opinion you will be taking a big gamble on the reliability of the unit, particularly the binder. Whatever you do I wish you good luck.

reckless
03-09-2017, 07:15 PM
Thanks to all your guys for your input. Please correct this novice.


The unit has 9M copies on it but is guaranteed to go under a service contract with a full money back guarantee. It was on a contract directly from Minolta as of last week. I was debating about putting it under a new contract but looking at Yoda/Allen is making me consider it.

freginold
03-09-2017, 07:17 PM
I assume the machine is used. In which case how many prints does it have on it already? All machines tend to need increased maintenance as they age, which may be beyond you as a non technical person. That's when you will need a fully trained & experienced technician who as access to all of the non standard parts that can wear or break. In my opinion you will be taking a big gamble on the reliability of the unit, particularly the binder. Whatever you do I wish you good luck.

That's a good point about the binder. I don't know that model specifically, but finishing attachments like that are typically not made by the machine manufacturer, and often can cause serious headaches for technicians (which translates into increased labor costs as it takes longer to troubleshoot and fix).

reckless
03-09-2017, 07:29 PM
This is a Minolta Bizhub 1200

KenB
03-09-2017, 08:03 PM
I have found (painfully) that the hardest customer to keep satisfied is the one with no service contract.

Folks with no agreement tend to never call for service until it gets to a critical point, where nearly everything needs to be addressed, making for a very high repair bill.

"Every time we call you it takes us down for 2 days and costs us a bundle!". Well, yeah, that's exactly what will happen when you wait too long to ask for help.

Nobody is doubting your technical prowess, it's just that you need a trained expert with the right resources (genuine parts, firmware, manuals, factory assistance, etc...) available should the need arise.

It's a lot easier to deal with a major issue if a tech has been there on a routine basis, and is familiar with not only the machine itself, but the environment, the way a machine is used, and, most importantly, the customer. These can be HUGE intangibles.

Over the years (far too many to admit :rolleyes:) I can safely say that the most difficult customers I ever had were ones that I had to write a bill for when I was done.

copyman
03-09-2017, 08:47 PM
Actually if I was an end user a production machine would be where I would want a service contract. It's not a bad deal paying per click with everything included.

It is a matter of rolling the dice. Example If you get a electrical surge or a circuit board just blows out you could be looking at $1200+ just for one board. Fuser units, etc $1000+ each,etc etc.

I tell my customers if you like peace of mind then get the contract, otherwise take the gamble. Like any type of insurance, nice when you need it.

Keep in mind it will be very costly if you max out all the consumable & maintenance items then call a company to put copier under contract. They will require ALL items to be replaced before covering with a contract. Big $$$$$

Couple of tips if you decide to take the gamble:

1) Use only Genuine toner & good quality paper.

2) Drop to knees say a prayer and power on the machine.

Best of luck

reckless
03-09-2017, 08:57 PM
Toner is $65, fuser is $168, and developer is $175 off ebay and look genuine.

Im looking at a contract based on responses.

freginold
03-09-2017, 09:06 PM
Toner is $65, fuser is $168, and developer is $175 off ebay and look genuine.

Im looking at a contract based on responses.

If you don't go with the contract, make sure (1) that those parts are genuine before ordering them, and (2) that if you order the developer by itself, instead of as a whole unit, that you know how to install it.

copyman made a good point -- if you decide to put the machine under contract later, the company will likely require many of the parts to be replaced so they can ensure that the machine is at a baseline level where they can keep it serviced.

Phil B.
03-09-2017, 09:23 PM
Thanks for the feedback. CPC on a 1051 are running $0.0075 since it is 7 years old. Multiply that by 1M copies it is $7500. Cost for toner, developer, drums, fuser parts is running $1,000 for 1M copies. $6500 is a huge difference IMO. The way I have heard these machines being described as being indestructible and solid makes me think it won't require $6500 in service. But maybe I am over simplifying things.




I would also consider: 1) what is the projected production on this unit. 2) Do you have a backup unit to shove jobs to while waiting for a tech to arrive. 3) What is the hourly cost for the tech to come to you ( travel time? Labor? Parts if needed? 4) can you afford to have a production machine down for days?

A maintenance contract like stated will: 1) Give you a expected response time 2) Better pricing on parts 3) Most companies will use OEM Toners/Drums/Parts as opposed to 3rd party compatibles. 4) Who knows how much knowledge the responding tech will have with that product!?

But Hey it's your money and reputation on the line.

reckless
03-09-2017, 10:18 PM
Thanks, I do have another C6000+ Perfect Binder for any down time.

I did talk to the local minolta branch, they said new printers get 0.00125 click rates, so my click rate may be much cheaper. They are going to inspect the unit soon. My calculations may have been off.

But the branch manager felt the life of a 1200 is around 25 million copies and than after that it starts getting ugly with lots of down time.

wjurls
03-09-2017, 11:24 PM
For this series of machine I can tell you with some pretty good accuracy. My largest direct mail customer has 4 KM 1051's (Same as 1200) and last year they ran 15.5 million 8 1/2 x 11 impressions. I recently tallied up everything they have spent in that time period for service and parts (Toner and paper not included) and they are averaging $.0014 per page. This is with PROPER maintenance with full PM's on schedule etc. These machines are well built tanks. I have 2 at over 22 million clicks still running strong. For this customer we keep an onsite parts and supply inventory to minimize down time.

Lee

reckless
03-10-2017, 12:22 AM
Lee,
Thats very cheap! Much cheaper than a maintenance contract. Do you recommend keeping it off contract and calling a technician when needed?

What do you think is the life of one of these units?

blackcat4866
03-10-2017, 12:29 AM
Just to give you some slight idea what's involved, I have scheduled an 8M PM on a similar build (bizhub PRESS 1052) There will be 50 individual parts and over a day labor. I won't be taking the time to tally all that up, but it will be considerable.

I have seen individual cases when my customers have done 500K without some sort of mishap, but all it takes is a jam in the booklet maker to blow that. Jams in the accessories can be very difficult to remove, assuming that you get all of the scraps.

It is a strong machine, but I would NEVER put the maintenance of production level machine in the hands of an amateur. It takes years of experience to learn the nuances of this profession, and you'll never get that experience working on one machine.

I agree with KenB. You have enough to worry about running a print shop. Do you really need a second occupation? You'll be a very stressed, unhappy man.

Should you decide to pay as you go, be prepared to spend $2000 every time you pick up the phone for service.

Just my two cents ... =^..^=

wjurls
03-10-2017, 12:45 AM
Lee,
Thats very cheap! Much cheaper than a maintenance contract. Do you recommend keeping it off contract and calling a technician when needed?

What do you think is the life of one of these units?

It is cheap, but that also doesnt count toner. If you do really high volume the cost of expensive parts is easily obsorbed over time. If not, and you end up needing a $3,000 LPH assembly, or image control board it can sting a bit. In the long run it's almost always cheaper to do time and materials. Just don't cheap out. 1051's and 1200's don't like generic supplies or parts. Properly maintained they are extremely reliable. Do to this customers volume I visit the site weekly to perform regular maintenance. Timee onsite per visit is anywhere from 2 to 4 hours a week. They also have 2 C1060's and a C8000.
I can see the machines under my care easily cresting 30 million clicks without breaking a sweat.

wjurls
03-10-2017, 12:51 AM
Add to the above, like the other guys have said. You want a tech that knows these machines. They aren't for any geek off the street.

Lee
The Copy Guys
Riverside, Ca

wjurls
03-10-2017, 02:33 PM
I just looked at my original post and spotted a major typo. Sorry guys. The actual CPC was $.004 not $.0014 Damn fat fingers!!

Hap
03-10-2017, 05:15 PM
it has been my experiance that customers can save money without a contract but customers with a contract tend to be happier couple points
1: responce time no contract billable customers take a back seat to customers with a contract
2: no contract means u will get hit with a big bill every time u place a service call while contract customes pay same ampount every month more or less
3: with a billable customer its always a judgement whether to replace parts as the cust always wants to cut cost where with a contract u just replace whats needed and what if a billable cust has an issue u need to try several parts to find problem

REGSIS
03-10-2017, 05:55 PM
The unit has 9M copies on it but is guaranteed to go under a service contract with a full money back guarantee. It was on a contract directly from Minolta as of last week. I was debating about putting it under a new contract but looking at Yoda/Allen is making me consider it.

When these machines are new for 1st million usually you will experience no problems just toner exchange. After that I've been on customer site so many times for various problems. Keep it on contract if you can. 4000$ for 1Million print is very reasonable price.

freginold
03-10-2017, 06:02 PM
3: with a billable customer its always a judgement whether to replace parts as the cust always wants to cut cost where with a contract u just replace whats needed and what if a billable cust has an issue u need to try several parts to find problem

That's a good point. A lot of times, especially with weird electrical problems, you may have to try a couple (or more) different boards before you figure out what the problem is. If you don't have a service contract, you may end up paying for all of those boards, even if they weren't necessary, depending on the servicer.

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