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vertigosystems
02-15-2019, 02:20 AM
Registered after reading this forum for a long time, looks like there's no shortage of seasoned experts here.
I've bought a KM C360 with ~160K copies, I had to replace the exposure lamp because it was broken somehow in shipping. Glass was fine, but the exposure lamp was busted, possibly from taking a huge bump in transit so I can't confirm if the replacement is the cause or the problem was pre-existing.
Attached are some pictures of what I'm dealing with.
More details:

Cleaned all mirrors/lenses/etc
Tried every sort of adjustment in the Scan Area service menu
Checked alignments of carriage and screws.
Problem started with the Blue rainbow at the top, then after cleaning everything exhaustively, the orange rainbow appeared on the bottom going in the sub direction
This problem manifests itself with both scanning and copying (one picture below is a scan)
These are 11x17 prints and the problem is evident on Letter size as well, just not as much for obvious reasons.


It appears to be some kind of light reflection problem, but I can't figure out what it might be.
On the orange one at the bottom, there's still a slight blue haze on the top edge.
I'd be grateful if someone could shed some light on any possibilities.
I also had compared all the settings against a good working C220 that we have at another satellite office which is virtually the same printer, or at least close enough.
Both admin and service menu settings were matched up.
Thanks!

Woxner
02-15-2019, 04:58 AM
looks like a mirror is slightly out of place. 458 had a simmular problem hads one do this on 17 inch on 224e.

Phil B.
02-15-2019, 05:14 AM
Registered after reading this forum for a long time, looks like there's no shortage of seasoned experts here.
I've bought a KM C360 with ~160K copies, I had to replace the exposure lamp because it was broken somehow in shipping. Glass was fine, but the exposure lamp was busted, possibly from taking a huge bump in transit so I can't confirm if the replacement is the cause or the problem was pre-existing. Attached are some pictures of what I'm dealing with.
More details:

Cleaned all mirrors/lenses/etc
Tried every sort of adjustment in the Scan Area service menu
Checked alignments of carriage and screws.
Problem started with the Blue rainbow at the top, then after cleaning everything exhaustively, the orange rainbow appeared on the bottom going in the sub direction
This problem manifests itself with both scanning and copying (one picture below is a scan)
These are 11x17 prints and the problem is evident on Letter size as well, just not as much for obvious reasons.


It appears to be some kind of light reflection problem, but I can't figure out what it might be.
On the orange one at the bottom, there's still a slight blue haze on the top edge.
I'd be grateful if someone could shed some light on any possibilities.
I also had compared all the settings against a good working C220 that we have at another satellite office which is virtually the same printer, or at least close enough.
Both admin and service menu settings were matched up.
Thanks!

1) LAMP broke
does scanner move smooth?
frame bent?
didn't notice damage when accepting shipment?

seen it on a Canon w/ same issue female accepted shipment.. didn't notice damage to unit

( fell off skid is my guess)

qbert69
02-15-2019, 07:32 AM
Registered after reading this forum for a long time, looks like there's no shortage of seasoned experts here.
I've bought a KM C360 with ~160K copies, I had to replace the exposure lamp because it was broken somehow in shipping. Glass was fine, but the exposure lamp was busted, possibly from taking a huge bump in transit so I can't confirm if the replacement is the cause or the problem was pre-existing.
Attached are some pictures of what I'm dealing with.
More details:

Cleaned all mirrors/lenses/etc
Tried every sort of adjustment in the Scan Area service menu
Checked alignments of carriage and screws.
Problem started with the Blue rainbow at the top, then after cleaning everything exhaustively, the orange rainbow appeared on the bottom going in the sub direction
This problem manifests itself with both scanning and copying (one picture below is a scan)
These are 11x17 prints and the problem is evident on Letter size as well, just not as much for obvious reasons.


It appears to be some kind of light reflection problem, but I can't figure out what it might be.
On the orange one at the bottom, there's still a slight blue haze on the top edge.
I'd be grateful if someone could shed some light on any possibilities.
I also had compared all the settings against a good working C220 that we have at another satellite office which is virtually the same printer, or at least close enough.
Both admin and service menu settings were matched up.
Thanks!Prismatic Artifacting...looks like a mirror might be out of place!!![emoji15]

Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk

copier tech
02-15-2019, 07:53 AM
If the scan lamp was broken then clearly the scanner unit has taken a large hit, so could be anything, most likely a mirror out of position.

Worst case the whole scanner has been deformed.

Were any covers crack or broken?

Phil B.
02-15-2019, 08:50 AM
If the scan lamp was broken then clearly the scanner unit has taken a large hit, so could be anything, most likely a mirror out of position.

Worst case the whole scanner has been deformed.

Were any covers crack or broken? Copier Tech ..Qbert69.. seems we all concur on the issue.. I'd be curious to find out what damage..mirror out due to bent frame..clearly or move to make copy.
Yeah should have been claimed.
New scan bed MIGHT be best resolve ?

Also notice OP said "cleaned Mirrors/Lens" DID he clean the WHITE plate and was it intact? ( seen the "label version peal due to heat) How hard were the mirrors pressed on? Did scanner belt/label slip a tad?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Gergő
02-15-2019, 11:11 AM
Hi,

If the mirrors were wrong the damage of the image would be different when try once flom platen glass once from feeder.
In this series (c220-c360) I've replaced plenty CCD boards.

Gergő

qbert69
02-15-2019, 01:25 PM
Copier Tech ..Qbert69.. seems we all concur on the issue.. I'd be curious to find out what damage..mirror out due to bent frame..clearly or move to make copy.
Yeah should have been claimed.
New scan bed MIGHT be best resolve ?

Also notice OP said "cleaned Mirrors/Lens" DID he clean the WHITE plate and was it intact? ( seen the "label version peal due to heat) How hard were the mirrors pressed on? Did scanner belt/label slip a tad?

Sent from my SM-G960U using TapatalkOne of the images....has some red, orange & yellow on the edge, there seems to be some "jitter" or wavy lines which to me looks like the transport is also not flowing smoothly!!!...so perhaps a mirror damaged or slightly out of position AND the transport mechanism racked out of position & slightly sticking. Just my 2 cents worth!!![emoji15]

Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk

tsbservice
02-15-2019, 02:01 PM
Do some copies/scans from DF, as other member suggested.
Also copy with zoom in/out and report/post pictures here.

blackcat4866
02-15-2019, 02:53 PM
It's out of focus, fitting with your scenario of a big hit. There a lot of ways that the scanner can be out of focus:
The scanner frame can be bent/askew.
one of the mirror assemblies can be bent.
Adjusting the CCD focus might help.

The fact that the glass is intact only means that somebody was smart enough to replace the glass before selling it to you.

I'll tell you a little story. The company I was working for at the time sold some color Sharps to a library (Pegasus series) with an aftermarket modification kit to scan bound books. It involved drilling out the spot welds for the left frame member, and using two sided tape to secure an additional mirror #2/#3 assembly to the scanner. Well we got the whole thing assembled alright, but the focus was horrible, it wouldn't do a color calibration, and the extra mirror assembly didn't want to stay attached. We spent a good week on it, and finally got it focused reasonably well on LTR images but the last 50mm of LGR was pretty bad, and it still wouldn't complete a calibration.

I guess that what I'm getting at is that focus is a difficult thing to adjust without the factory jigs, and if you haven't done it before I would enlist the assistance of someone who has. Current manuals do not offer focus adjustments, so the manual won't be of much assistance.
=^..^=

vertigosystems
02-15-2019, 06:06 PM
If the scan lamp was broken then clearly the scanner unit has taken a large hit, so could be anything, most likely a mirror out of position.

Worst case the whole scanner has been deformed.

Were any covers crack or broken?


Definitely possible, but to my eye, I can't see anything that looks like bent metal, certainly no bumps or bruises to the carriage. Everything moves smoothly from end to end.
As far as I can tell, the mirrors appear to be straight across without any kind of skew, although when moved over closer to the CCD, where the artifacting starts, it's hard to get a look at what's reflected into the mirror.

Just to be certain, are all the mirrors glass inserts or are there polished metal ones? The one that reflects the exposure tube upward seems like it might just be polished metal because no matter how I clean it, it remains ever so slightly hazy.


The fact that the glass is intact only means that somebody was smart enough to replace the glass before selling it to you.
Well, the lower right corner has a chip in it where it touches the clip, and there was some shards inside, so I don't think the top glass was replaced. The mirror assembly is somewhat free-floating and has some play up and down since it's only guided by the springy drive cables, so my guess is either falling off a skid, dropped to hard which caused the lamp to move hard enough to crack, or bouncing in transit. They didn't lock the scanner before shipping.


Also notice OP said "cleaned Mirrors/Lens" DID he clean the WHITE plate and was it intact? ( seen the "label version peal due to heat) How hard were the mirrors pressed on? Did scanner belt/label slip a tad?
Is that a post you're referencing? I couldn't find anything on that, but if you're referring to the strip near the ADF (black one side, grey other) then that is fully intact. On the bottom of the main glass, the ruler's stickers are slightly yellowed and have some minor air ingress from adhesive breakdown, but nothing out of the ordinary for a 160K printer.
doesn't seem to be any play in the mirrors other than as a whole carriage.
As a last resort, I might dismantle my C220 and check how the assembly is supposed to feel in terms of how taught the drive cables are.

Also, in regards to shipping claims, this wasn't an option since, unbeknownst to me, the freight operator that the shipper chose was a "budget" operator who offered no insurance of any kind. In all honesty, if I had paid more for it, I'd be upset, but ironically the freight cost more than the printer and I only put about $100 of parts into it so far (pickup rollers, secondary paper path guide and exposure lamp, of which I got two since one got temporarily lost in the mail so the company shipped another) So all in all I'm way ahead in terms of value provided I can resolve this problem. This unit included a fully outfitted finisher with it as well (minus saddle stitch)

ADF scans and copies come out perfect, so there has to be something wrong with the movement of the exposure/mirror unit.
I'm not sure of how taught or loose the guide strings should be, but after performing the step in the service manual under mechanical adjustment the pattern had moved mostly from the top of the image (blue) to the bottom of the image (orange).
I did not re-wind the drive cables since I didn't remove the motor but this might be my next step unless anyone thinks it unwarranted.

Attached is an album of a bunch more pictures and videos too large to attach, maybe someone can see something that I'm missing as far as the optics go.
KM C360 Prismatic Artifacting - Google Photos (https://photos.app.goo.gl/h8uDVJkWRtZnTqjA8)


Zoomed 110% scan - minor haze top and bottom.
Scanner movement (video)
Top glass lower right chip, doesn't affect the fitment/seating.
- 6. Exposure/mirror assy. Best I could do with the odd camera placement on my phone.

7. Manual movement (video)
8. - 14. Various views of mirrors
15. - Mirror and exposure freedom of movement (video)
16. - 21. More views of mirrors.
22. ADF scan of 11x17 - result is perfect with no shadows. Some minor banding in print output (either a flat spot on a transfer roller, or magenta developer)

Albonline
02-15-2019, 07:08 PM
It's out of focus, fitting with your scenario of a big hit. There a lot of ways that the scanner can be out of focus:
The scanner frame can be bent/askew.
one of the mirror assemblies can be bent.
Adjusting the CCD focus might help.

The fact that the glass is intact only means that somebody was smart enough to replace the glass before selling it to you.

I'll tell you a little story. The company I was working for at the time sold some color Sharps to a library (Pegasus series) with an aftermarket modification kit to scan bound books. It involved drilling out the spot welds for the left frame member, and using two sided tape to secure an additional mirror #2/#3 assembly to the scanner. Well we got the whole thing assembled alright, but the focus was horrible, it wouldn't do a color calibration, and the extra mirror assembly didn't want to stay attached. We spent a good week on it, and finally got it focused reasonably well on LTR images but the last 50mm of LGR was pretty bad, and it still wouldn't complete a calibration.

I guess that what I'm getting at is that focus is a difficult thing to adjust without the factory jigs, and if you haven't done it before I would enlist the assistance of someone who has. Current manuals do not offer focus adjustments, so the manual won't be of much assistance.
=^..^=

concur with out of focus , somehow the ccd is out of the focal plane of the mirrors . must have been one hell of a wack to hurt a 280 series optical system, would suspect damage elsewhere also, bent frame write unit mirrors or lenses.

blackcat4866
02-15-2019, 10:11 PM
If you think the problem resides with the mirror drive, remove the scanner motor and rotate the drive manually. You should be able to identify rough areas, scraping sounds, or wire ropes over-wrapping each other. =^..^=

907tec
02-15-2019, 10:21 PM
I vote for bent frame.

We have seen similar issues when the scanner frame/support gets bent during shipping. It really does not take much of a bend to cause scanning issues. Seems like pretty much every time, it's the free-hanging left side of the scanner frame that bends downwards. It might be barbaric, but we have usually been able to fix this issue by lifting the machine from the front left corner of the scanner so it bends back into place. You can also use an appropriately-sized section of threaded metal pipe along with two flanges: put it in the document exit area, under the front left corner of scanner frame and screw the flanges outwards until they apply pressure to the frame (so it acts as a "spreader"). With some of our abusive clients, this added pipe support has become a permanent modification

qbert69
02-15-2019, 11:24 PM
Definitely possible, but to my eye, I can't see anything that looks like bent metal, certainly no bumps or bruises to the carriage. Everything moves smoothly from end to end.
As far as I can tell, the mirrors appear to be straight across without any kind of skew, although when moved over closer to the CCD, where the artifacting starts, it's hard to get a look at what's reflected into the mirror.

Just to be certain, are all the mirrors glass inserts or are there polished metal ones? The one that reflects the exposure tube upward seems like it might just be polished metal because no matter how I clean it, it remains ever so slightly hazy.


Well, the lower right corner has a chip in it where it touches the clip, and there was some shards inside, so I don't think the top glass was replaced. The mirror assembly is somewhat free-floating and has some play up and down since it's only guided by the springy drive cables, so my guess is either falling off a skid, dropped to hard which caused the lamp to move hard enough to crack, or bouncing in transit. They didn't lock the scanner before shipping.


Is that a post you're referencing? I couldn't find anything on that, but if you're referring to the strip near the ADF (black one side, grey other) then that is fully intact. On the bottom of the main glass, the ruler's stickers are slightly yellowed and have some minor air ingress from adhesive breakdown, but nothing out of the ordinary for a 160K printer.
doesn't seem to be any play in the mirrors other than as a whole carriage.
As a last resort, I might dismantle my C220 and check how the assembly is supposed to feel in terms of how taught the drive cables are.

Also, in regards to shipping claims, this wasn't an option since, unbeknownst to me, the freight operator that the shipper chose was a "budget" operator who offered no insurance of any kind. In all honesty, if I had paid more for it, I'd be upset, but ironically the freight cost more than the printer and I only put about $100 of parts into it so far (pickup rollers, secondary paper path guide and exposure lamp, of which I got two since one got temporarily lost in the mail so the company shipped another) So all in all I'm way ahead in terms of value provided I can resolve this problem. This unit included a fully outfitted finisher with it as well (minus saddle stitch)

ADF scans and copies come out perfect, so there has to be something wrong with the movement of the exposure/mirror unit.
I'm not sure of how taught or loose the guide strings should be, but after performing the step in the service manual under mechanical adjustment the pattern had moved mostly from the top of the image (blue) to the bottom of the image (orange).
I did not re-wind the drive cables since I didn't remove the motor but this might be my next step unless anyone thinks it unwarranted.

Attached is an album of a bunch more pictures and videos too large to attach, maybe someone can see something that I'm missing as far as the optics go.
KM C360 Prismatic Artifacting - Google Photos (https://photos.app.goo.gl/h8uDVJkWRtZnTqjA8)


Zoomed 110% scan - minor haze top and bottom.
Scanner movement (video)
Top glass lower right chip, doesn't affect the fitment/seating.
- 6. Exposure/mirror assy. Best I could do with the odd camera placement on my phone.

7. Manual movement (video)
8. - 14. Various views of mirrors
15. - Mirror and exposure freedom of movement (video)
16. - 21. More views of mirrors.
22. ADF scan of 11x17 - result is perfect with no shadows. Some minor banding in print output (either a flat spot on a transfer roller, or magenta developer)The mirror that reflects light onto the document is usually a formed metal but all of the other mirrors are first surface silvered mirrors that relay the image to the lens block assembly. As previously stated the mirror orientation may be slightly off in relation to your lens block assembly.[emoji15]

Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk

vertigosystems
02-16-2019, 02:49 AM
I vote for bent frame.

We have seen similar issues when the scanner frame/support gets bent during shipping. It really does not take much of a bend to cause scanning issues. Seems like pretty much every time, it's the free-hanging left side of the scanner frame that bends downwards. It might be barbaric, but we have usually been able to fix this issue by lifting the machine from the front left corner of the scanner so it bends back into place. You can also use an appropriately-sized section of threaded metal pipe along with two flanges: put it in the document exit area, under the front left corner of scanner frame and screw the flanges outwards until they apply pressure to the frame (so it acts as a "spreader"). With some of our abusive clients, this added pipe support has become a permanent modification


I'm not above barbarism. That sounds like a very likely fix. The unit has the sorting tray and finishing unit installed, so I don't plan to have any paper coming out of the regular exit.
As far as bent metal goes, the Finisher had a bent metal top which prevented the switch from being depressed when the lid was closed and resulted in an Open Compartment message, fixed by pulling the metal bar upwards.

Call me Conan, cause I'm going to give this a try!

907tec
02-16-2019, 02:53 AM
Sometimes, if you're lucky, you will actually feel the frame slip back into place. Take it slow, good luck.

blackcat4866
02-16-2019, 03:13 AM
I was looking through your photos and GIFs:

-The wire rope tension looks right.
-The top frame is compressed down ~2mm at the center of the slit glass. Use a straight edge to confirm that.
-The mirrors appear to be seated correctly: Each mirror rests on three points. Rock each mirror in it's mount to confirm that it's snug at front and back, three mirrors, touching at three points each. And yes they are glass front surface mirrors, typical on all copiers.
-With the scan motor off you'll be able to tell if there are areas that drag. Clean the scan rails with alcohol. Use 30w straight weight motor oil (like you'd use in your lawn mower), a drop on your finger then wipe the scan rail surface. Two or three drops per rail is plenty. Be aware that the metal edge of the scan rails can be very sharp, and bleeding on them doesn't seem to help. And the oil makes it take longer to heal.
-Judging by the jagged edge of the margin, I'm pretty certain that the scanner is not moving smoothly.
=^..^=

tsbservice
02-16-2019, 11:21 AM
As it may not hurt you can play a bit with CCD unit adjustment. There is a procedure for this in SM.
Just be sure prior move to mark old/original CCD position.

vertigosystems
02-16-2019, 06:34 PM
Well, mark it solved, because bent frame it was.
I slowly lifted up on the free hanging corner and felt a pop like cracking a knuckle or fixing a dislocated shoulder. I actually felt my heart sink when that happened because I was sure I ruined it for good.
But the results speak for themselves.
Thank you thank you to everyone for their input, you’re all epic heroes in my book.

Phil B.
02-17-2019, 03:05 AM
Definitely possible, but to my eye, I can't see anything that looks like bent metal, certainly no bumps or bruises to the carriage. Everything moves smoothly from end to end.
As far as I can tell, the mirrors appear to be straight across without any kind of skew, although when moved over closer to the CCD, where the artifacting starts, it's hard to get a look at what's reflected into the mirror.

Just to be certain, are all the mirrors glass inserts or are there polished metal ones? The one that reflects the exposure tube upward seems like it might just be polished metal because no matter how I clean it, it remains ever so slightly hazy.


Well, the lower right corner has a chip in it where it touches the clip, and there was some shards inside, so I don't think the top glass was replaced. The mirror assembly is somewhat free-floating and has some play up and down since it's only guided by the springy drive cables, so my guess is either falling off a skid, dropped to hard which caused the lamp to move hard enough to crack, or bouncing in transit. They didn't lock the scanner before shipping.


Is that a post you're referencing? I couldn't find anything on that, but if you're referring to the strip near the ADF (black one side, grey other) then that is fully intact. On the bottom of the main glass, the ruler's stickers are slightly yellowed and have some minor air ingress from adhesive breakdown, but nothing out of the ordinary for a 160K printer.
doesn't seem to be any play in the mirrors other than as a whole carriage.
As a last resort, I might dismantle my C220 and check how the assembly is supposed to feel in terms of how taught the drive cables are.

Also, in regards to shipping claims, this wasn't an option since, unbeknownst to me, the freight operator that the shipper chose was a "budget" operator who offered no insurance of any kind. In all honesty, if I had paid more for it, I'd be upset, but ironically the freight cost more than the printer and I only put about $100 of parts into it so far (pickup rollers, secondary paper path guide and exposure lamp, of which I got two since one got temporarily lost in the mail so the company shipped another) So all in all I'm way ahead in terms of value provided I can resolve this problem. This unit included a fully outfitted finisher with it as well (minus saddle stitch)

ADF scans and copies come out perfect, so there has to be something wrong with the movement of the exposure/mirror unit.
I'm not sure of how taught or loose the guide strings should be, but after performing the step in the service manual under mechanical adjustment the pattern had moved mostly from the top of the image (blue) to the bottom of the image (orange).
I did not re-wind the drive cables since I didn't remove the motor but this might be my next step unless anyone thinks it unwarranted.

Attached is an album of a bunch more pictures and videos too large to attach, maybe someone can see something that I'm missing as far as the optics go.
KM C360 Prismatic Artifacting - Google Photos (https://photos.app.goo.gl/h8uDVJkWRtZnTqjA8)


Zoomed 110% scan - minor haze top and bottom.
Scanner movement (video)
Top glass lower right chip, doesn't affect the fitment/seating.
- 6. Exposure/mirror assy. Best I could do with the odd camera placement on my phone.

7. Manual movement (video)
8. - 14. Various views of mirrors
15. - Mirror and exposure freedom of movement (video)
16. - 21. More views of mirrors.
22. ADF scan of 11x17 - result is perfect with no shadows. Some minor banding in print output (either a flat spot on a transfer roller, or magenta developer)

white plate.. under top metal frame ..between slot for slit glass and platen glass.. a "sticker " solid bright white" have to have a dentist mirror to see it

cloth with cleaner ..wipe it good

w

سراج
04-01-2019, 07:46 PM
رفع السكنر من جهة اليسار

Phil B.
04-01-2019, 08:30 PM
رفع السكنر من جهة اليسار

please reply in ENGLISH....

this site is located in the USA...

doubtful any read that language

and frankly I am one that feels I shouldn't have to use " translate" to understand your post esp. since the WHOLE thread -= IS =- in English.

I have to assume that since you replied in your native tongue.. you UNDERSTAND what was being said

سراج
04-01-2019, 08:50 PM
Lift the scanner from the
So that they are straight and not slanted left42219

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