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twinax
10-08-2008, 09:08 PM
Hi Guy's

As you know there are a lot of problem with the drum unit of C6500. Several error code 22xx and mainly flipping blade in a short time (less than 2000 prints).

Do you have any information about this problem or some workarrounds to reduce (maybe solve) it?

Thanks for your help.

konisolver
10-08-2008, 10:21 PM
There are new drum units to correct the problem.

dogsbody
10-09-2008, 11:55 AM
There are new drum units to correct the problem.
I had the production print specialist from PTSC with me today visiting some of our production print sites and this was one thing i brought up with him, he knew nothing about new drum units and told me it was still under investigation. do you have any more info about them because at the minute i am using the old drums i have saved up for emergencies because i don't want to go back to them 2 hours later.

also see this thread:http://www.copytechnet.com/forums/konica-minolta/12753-c6500-drum-blade-flipping.html

twinax
10-09-2008, 06:42 PM
Hello,

Thank you for your replies.

I've any information about new drum.

Today I visited a customer site, and I remove one spring (rear one, on all colors) onto the cleaning blade.

We have printed 3000 prints without any problem. (no error code, no flipping blade, and no print quality problem like lines).

The engine is under survey for 2 or 3 days. After that if that's good I will modify all engines.

I keep you informed about the result.

Kind regards,

konisolver
10-15-2008, 02:51 AM
There are new drum units to correct the problem.
Wrong info. OOOps... Does anyone have any pictures for this procedure?

random
10-15-2008, 07:28 AM
There is a new drum unit called DU102B but this is only supposed to be for black and to solve the black mark problem not blade flipping. To stop flipping cut the corner of each edge of the blade(about 1 mm). Let me know how that works, oh and heaps of setting powder.

twinax
10-15-2008, 07:06 PM
Hi,

If the customer print only text it works with only one spring, but if you print solid color or half color, there is balancing problem between upper and lower print (more dark on operator side than the other.)

Next step : I will try to cut the corner as mentionned.

Thanks you

laserman06
10-16-2008, 12:54 AM
We got an email today from our KM rep. This is what it said

To All,
In regards to the C6500 blade flipping issue, the following is the latest update. On all machines experiencing this issue please make sure you have a SSD ticket open for each machine and update the ticket with the results of the following solution. This feedback is critical to ensure all available information will be provided to those addressing this issue.Thank you for your patience and in advance for your feedback.

Please have the technicians install this firmware and report the results via the Hotline. This firmware will create toner bands in-between the pages during the copy run to help lubricate the blade. Please set DipSW 13-2=0 and DipSW 13-3=1.

Please note that this is a temporary workaround and they are still trying to determine the root cause of the problem.

A solution has been created.

I looked and there is a special firmware that was released today. You can find it on KM website. I have attached the release notes

VIJN
10-16-2008, 12:59 PM
I also have had c6500 drum blade flips about 8k old. Fixed by fitting c500 drum application roller and pad to c6500 drum unit.

Running 2 machines both sets of drum units fitted with these parts both now done over 300k no flips.

The application roller on the c500 has a more dense coating hense better lubrication:)

junior
10-18-2008, 07:37 PM
We haven't had any blades flip lately but the ones we did we replaced the blade and had no problems since.

redhotrob
10-19-2008, 02:59 PM
I wonder if this special firmware can be installed with version 41?
I have a few machines with the finishers that version 41 helps.
I'm tempted to roll back to 40 and install the patch.
The machines aren't going down because of the finisher exit.

DaveTech
11-04-2008, 05:11 PM
Hi all, Just wondering about that special firmware for the blade flipping I have looked on infohun europe and cant seem to find it just wondering if some might be able to send it to me if they have it.
Thanks
Dave

twinax
11-04-2008, 07:31 PM
Hello Guy's

The problem (flipping blade) is growing up without any solution or workaround at this moment. the latest version for C6500 V.41 but the adjustement to avoid this problem doesn't work.
I tested several thing but nothing works well.

IF you have more information please tell me!

I do ti if I've it.

Regards,

syscolor
11-05-2008, 06:26 PM
Blade flip may be addressed by;

1. Cut corners of the blade at a 45 degree angle
2. Apply carwax (spray on) to the drum surface, buff. This has worked for several dealers.
3. Use alot of setting powder and work the blade back and forth on it.
4. Use C500 blade pressure springs (reduced pressure).

KMBS is working with a new type of drum, they are not available as yet.

lucky13
11-08-2008, 05:18 AM
We got an email today from our KM rep. This is what it said

To All,
In regards to the C6500 blade flipping issue, the following is the latest update. On all machines experiencing this issue please make sure you have a SSD ticket open for each machine and update the ticket with the results of the following solution. This feedback is critical to ensure all available information will be provided to those addressing this issue.Thank you for your patience and in advance for your feedback.

Please have the technicians install this firmware and report the results via the Hotline. This firmware will create toner bands in-between the pages during the copy run to help lubricate the blade. Please set DipSW 13-2=0 and DipSW 13-3=1.

Please note that this is a temporary workaround and they are still trying to determine the root cause of the problem.
ill give you ROOT CAUSE lowest bidder manufacturing ,never had these problems when manufactured in japan or europe.
A solution has been created.

I looked and there is a special firmware that was released today. You can find it on KM website. I have attached the release notes
ill give you ROOT CAUSE lowest bidder manufacturing ,never had these problems when manufactured in japan or europe.

Setright
11-12-2008, 06:39 PM
ill give you ROOT CAUSE lowest bidder manufacturing ,never had these problems when manufactured in japan or europe.


I hearrrrd that :D



I have had postive results with stretching the springs. Pull them slowly and as soon as you can feel them stretch past their elastic limit, release them again. The should be about 0.5 - 1.0 mm longer. NOT MORE, they won't clean the drum effectively.

A local colleague applies setting powder twice over on new drums, and his blades don't flip even though he doesn't stretch the springs.


I like the idea about trimming the blade corners off, since the blades I have seen tend to flip only in one side, suggesting that it is the corner that starts the flip.

konikilla
11-12-2008, 09:32 PM
We,ve been buying 8050 blades and inserting them into the 6500 drum units. 3 machines giving this trouble. Not a peep out any of them for 4 weeks now!!!!

seniortech
11-19-2008, 10:05 AM
I have now tried everything suggested on this thread and am still having the blade flip problem. Fitted a special firmware patch from KM to try and cure this problem, but nothing works.

Customer has 8 machines and have now given us two months to resolve the problem permantly or they will terminate the contract.

I have been told that KM do not know themselves the underlying cause of this problem.

Has anyone else here been told otherwise, is there an end to this problem in sight?

random
11-20-2008, 10:45 AM
I have now tried everything suggested on this thread and am still having the blade flip problem. Fitted a special firmware patch from KM to try and cure this problem, but nothing works.

Customer has 8 machines and have now given us two months to resolve the problem permantly or they will terminate the contract.

I have been told that KM do not know themselves the underlying cause of this problem.

Has anyone else here been told otherwise, is there an end to this problem in sight?

Remove the blade (take white holders off each end), clip the corners off the blade, put blade back in use alot of setting powder. I have had 100% succses with this method.

seniortech
11-20-2008, 01:49 PM
Remove the blade (take white holders off each end), clip the corners off the blade, put blade back in use alot of setting powder. I have had 100% succses with this method.

Already tried this but without any success.

konikilla
11-20-2008, 09:21 PM
Are you sure you have tried an 8050 blade in the drum unit. All our engineers our now using these and have reported no problems.

Something we were about to try but didn't as our problems seem to be sorted is to rub silicone oil onto the blade before insertion. Rub for at least 2 minutes so you have no blobs but just a very thin film of oil on the blade when you insert the drum. If the film of oil is to thick the toner will stick to it during cleaning and you'll get lines.

I've done this before when I was desperate to fix something similar. Although it was on a much smaller machine but the principle should be the same. Might be worth a try if your in a fix.

sanchez
11-21-2008, 07:47 AM
BT recommends to take following action when C2214-14 occurs.

1. Step by step check items:

a. Check if cleaning blade flipping occurs on the corresponding color.
1) If the flipping occurs, replace the respective drum cartridge.
To prevent the recurrence of the blade flipping, be sure to apply setting powder on to the surface of the drum.
2) If the flipping does not occur, go to step 2.

b. Check the setting of the 10.3.8 Belt Line Speed Adj. (Printer Adjustment) in the Service manual.
1) If the setting value is not in the range between -5 to -35, re-adjust the value within -5 to -35.
* If -5 to -35 cannot give the satisfactory result, also perform the 10.3.3. FD Mag. Adjustment (Printer Adjustment).
After the adjustment, please check the recurrence. If the symptom recurs, go to step 2.
2) If the setting value is between -5 to -35, go to step 2.

2. Reduce the difference of the drum line speed and belt line speed using following special firmware and DipSW setting.

CSES-ID for the special firmware: DLBT0800069EN*
[Background]
If C2211-14 occurs though the set value is within -5 to -35, it is very likely that C2211-14 occurs due to too light drum drive torque.
Reducing the difference between belt line speed and drum line speed is effective.

----------DipSW21-6, 7-------------------------
bit6 bit7
0 0 : Default
1 0 : 0.1% up
0 1 : 0.2% up (Recommended value)
1 1 : 0.3% up
---------------------------------------------------
If the symptom recurs with the recommended value, try the 0.3% UP setting.





P.S. Info from european Infohub

ni311
11-21-2008, 05:48 PM
It seems to me that this topic will never end. I never had one blade flipping and the biggest counter on a C6500 I am servicing it's around 1,500,000 Keep my finger cross :) Although I never checked where the drums I am using are made, I'll keep you informed...

VIJN
11-22-2008, 01:22 PM
:) we also had drum blade flips on c6500 drum units but since changing only the black application roller from a 8050/c500 drum unit into a c6500 drum unit have never replaced a drum for blade flips. Have 2 machines doing over 200k each fortnight with less than 5% coverage on page and mainly black and white. Which use to flip blades every day to having done over 1mil prints each no problems. When you remove the roller from the 8050 drum unit and compare to the c6500 roller the coating is thicker, hence better lubrication. It takes about 45mins to rebuild all four drum units.you may waste 4 8050 drum units but its a small cost compared to a p_ssed off customer.
Try it,it works.

Techead42
12-02-2008, 02:06 AM
I've had two of my CS650 boxes flip blades...one in particular was a fairly high-profile customer so I had to come up with a workaround...what I did was take a yellow drum unit that had flipped...I removed both tension springs, drilled a hole through the center of the blade frame, and inserted a larger spring underneath the blade. I reinstalled the blade assembly and then set the drum back in the machine...haven't had a flip yet, and it's been probably 60K since my mod. My thought was that since the blades have been flipping up due to possible drum surface issue, why not remove the upward pull of the tension springs and apply tension from below, right in the center? This seems to have worked well.

Warming_Up
12-02-2008, 04:25 AM
Swap the blades out of the old drum units into the new drum units. Works like a charm. Been doing it for months while KM twiddles their corporate thumbs...

Techead42
12-02-2008, 04:31 AM
Swap the blades out of the old drum units into the new drum units. Works like a charm. Been doing it for months while KM twiddles their corporate thumbs...

Gotta love that corporate mentality....

VIJN
12-04-2008, 11:17 AM
I have received good news from head office regarding drum blade flips. Km japan are supplying a number of 8050 drum unit application rollers to us. Km agree that changing these rollers fixes the blade flip issues. ( i told them that 3 mths ago).

They also state that the application rollers on the c6500 drum had not been changed and looking into what has caused the issue.

As for part number for this roller do not have yet but will keep you updated.

Hope this helps :)

ColorGOD
12-04-2008, 08:24 PM
VIJN,
Where exactly did you hear this? I am in the US and did not hear of this. Do you have direct access to KMBT?

Also, has anyone tried Methuselah™ brand Padding Powder? Some people are swearing by it.

buster68
12-04-2008, 10:48 PM
We've got this problem going on with most of our 6500's. We've tried the new 102B drums with no help. Our KMBS production print DSM said that KM is no where near finding out whats causing the problem. I will say that we have 2 5500's that we've not updated firmware on and they are working fine, even with the 102B drums. I think its version 40/41 firmware thats causing the problem. About the time we updated our 6500's we started having the drumblade flip problem, but we can't back down the firmware because of the perfectbinders and the version 2 Fierys.

VIJN
12-05-2008, 10:42 AM
I had a reply from ptsc after chasing this issue for some time now with japan. I had been fitting these rollers out of 8050's after trying everthing else. The rest of the country and by what i've been told england/ireland has starting to do the same with great success.
Whether km has sent us some to confirm my/our solution i don't know but the rollers turned up today in boxes straight from an assembly line with no part number ( sorry about that )

if i get any other info i will post it:)

DanKMBS
01-07-2009, 01:16 PM
The factory will be releasing a final fix in the next few days. If you receive a drum unit with a green dot on the box, it should not flip. If you replace the blade and holders with one from a C500, it will not flip. I will post more as I receive information.

dudley
01-14-2009, 05:28 AM
I am glad to hear that there may be a cure coming. We are getting a little tired of this problem. I personally feel that the problem is the fact the lube bar and the applicator roller are 14mm too short to lube the entire length of the drum and blade and until this is addressed we will be see more of it. We have reported this to SSD in the states but got no response. I sure hope the new drums work, we are in a very dry area with humidity levels around 10% and I think this doesn't help.

doma873
01-14-2009, 10:25 PM
We have been putting the c500 app roller in here in canberra with great sucess. Thanks to the guys in Brisbane for a solution. I hope the new drums we are getting this week will work.

Gerry.Fitz
01-15-2009, 07:18 PM
Hi
The new drums are being fitted as we talk...i.e tonight the customer has seven 65's and runs them 24/7 so by next week will have done at least 100k we will see if they work
Gerry

DanKMBS
01-16-2009, 12:07 AM
I assume that these are the drums with the green dot?

texchar555
01-20-2009, 12:40 AM
HI, Im just wondering . what are the locations of all the drums flipping? I live in dallas and when we get one all we do is replace the drum and we never here of this issue again.

Setright
01-20-2009, 07:07 AM
It is worldwide, but no doubt local climate/printing conditions will have an effect.

Frankie
01-20-2009, 07:41 AM
Here in The Netherlands we have major problems to! we are waiting for the solution! Customers are getting tired of machines with the flipping blades.

seniortech
01-29-2009, 09:22 PM
There still seems no end to this problem in sight. Many customers are now aware of this problem and will not now buy KM colour production machines and are turning to alternative manufacturers because of this problem.

It appears that KM are still no nearer solving this problem than they were several months ago. Even a couple of the drum units provided to our technical support dept by KM for evaluation have flipped the blades!!

Every one of the workarounds mentioned on this forum we have tried but still cannot guarantee to our customers that the blades will not flip. I would have thought that after nearly 10 months KM would be aware of exact cause of this problem.

The long wait for a resolution continues!!!!

texchar555
01-30-2009, 01:27 AM
got one q, did you guys turn on the dehumidifiers on the machine? The switch is bottom left of the machine. Its got a cover that snaps off.

DanKMBS
01-30-2009, 02:03 AM
As a KMBS tech, I can tell you that we have been told is to install the C500 blades and two white holders on a drum unit that has flipped. It has worked for me so far. If you do not install the holders, the C500 blade will flip.

TAUS0801219EN14

Products:
IKON CPP650
IKON BusinessPro 650
CS620
CS650 Pro
bizhub PRO C6500P
IKON CPP650P
bizhub PRO C5500
IKON CPP550
IKON BusinessPro 550c
bizhub PRO C6501
IKON CPP660
IKON BusinessPro 660c
CS665
bizhub PRO C5501
IKON CPP560
bizhub PRO C6501P
bizhub PRO C65hc
C51N
C65N
bizhub PRO C6500 Options:
None Specified Details Subject:
Streaks and/or lines on copies, possibly accompanied by an abnormal noise.
Description:
Streaks and/or lines on copies (drum blade flipped).
Solution:
CAUSE: Drum cleaning blade has "flipped".

SOLUTION: Depending upon the installed Drum Unit there are different recommendations:


If using a DU-102 Drum Unit please install the cleaning blade (p/n 65AA 2003 1) and 2 cleaning blade holders (p/n 65AA 2012 0) from the 8050/bizhub PRO C500. The 8050/bizhub PRO C500 cleaning blade should be trimmed on the corners before installation.
If using a DU-102B Drum Unit please install the cleaning blade (p/n 65AA 2003 1) and 2 cleaning blade holders (p/n 65AA 2012 0) from the 8050/bizhub PRO C500. The 8050/bizhub PRO C500 cleaning blade should NOT be trimmed on the corners before installation.

buster68
01-30-2009, 09:01 PM
DanKMBS,

Glad to hear that it works...now if we could just get some of those blades and holders...ours are on b/o til April.

pspahr
01-30-2009, 09:36 PM
Please tell me it isn't so!!!! I got the holders in no time but I still haven't received confirmation for my blades order!!!! Please tell me it isn't so!!!

skks345
02-10-2009, 01:20 AM
I have had success just using yellow toner with the original drums.using the yellow toner as padding powder and working it in to the blade,dont release the screws and add toner into the blade then release the screws and work the drum back and forth a bunch of times until the blade has gone both ways a bunch of times,have done this at a production print shop with no problems.all the other recommendations havnt worked.

texchar555
02-10-2009, 03:15 AM
skk, I do agree with you with the blade padding, I added the c500 blade and fulcrums but still used the gold springs. Its been working like a champ. I had one with 2.4 and was flipping every drum 9 in two days.

doma873
02-10-2009, 08:30 AM
I heard today that the DU102C will be available soon.

twinax
02-10-2009, 09:27 PM
Hi,
The DU102c is already avaliable but only on limited quantity.
I confirm to you that it works well.
You can notice that this drum( DU102C) is already used on C6501 only for black.

Regards,
Twinax

mick75
02-12-2009, 07:20 AM
we have had this issue over and over again, Konica doesnt have a clue, only thing that has worked for me is replacing the 6500 blades with 8050, nothing else works, not setting powder, firmwear, old blades, streching springs, but the 8050 drum blades work like a charm, I have 32 6500's and all have been quiet for months, no codes, just normal repairs. Trust me get some 8050 blades: don't cut the corners just put them in.

dudley
02-14-2009, 05:28 PM
we have tried it all up here, c500 blades,springs fulcrums and still get some flips. DU102B drum from a 6501 flipped in 200 copies. I THINK WE WILL STILL BE GETTING THESE PROBLEMS UNTIL THE LUBE BAR AND APPLICATOR ROLLER ARE MADE 14MM LONGER SO THEY LUBE THE WHOLE DRUM BLADE!!! All the fancy fixes in the world can't lube the last 7mm of the blade for long. The blades are flipping from the end inward.

I think the damn factory has blinders on and are only looking at the blade, not the heart of the problem. If anybody from tech support is monitoring this thread please pass this on to Japan!!!!

end of rant from a very tired 20 yr tech!

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