Realistic comparison between a heavy duty copier vs multiple light duty copier

[Bulakdot]

So guys, second post here since my newbie introduction. One of the reasons why I joined this forum is to ask you experts in this trade of your opinion regarding the situation below.

Location: my shop
Number of prints per month: 15-20k (will increase monthly up to 50k based on market forecast)
type of prints: photocopy and prints of school materials / B&W and color / mostly on copy paper or plain paper or bond paper (whatever you call it) / no finisher necessary

My first option is to get a single MFP color copier/printer from leading brands with 30-50 cpm. Now I have been wondering about epson products. What came to mind is to get 3 or 4 epson inkjet MFP with 10-15 cpm. Do you think this is a good strategy?

[allan]

So you want to feed 4 little screaming chicks that s*its every where...

No paper capacity no ink capacity no output capacity probably no proper double sided function...
Not to mention the noise that it is going to make.

Use the right tool for the job.

50K? get at least one 45-75 PPM b/w.
And a 25-35 ppm color for a backup.

[allan]

Needs to be on contract.
Otherwise new, used or cost per copy.

Duplicator could be an option depending on the kind of jobs

[Bulakdot]

Yeah they do scream like kids.. singing inkjets they are.

Sorry but that 50k is only a forecast in the coming months. At this moment we are hovering around 20k only. Very short runs and varies a lot (1 to 2 pages color, 3 copies) to 1000 copies B/W double sided.

The reason I'm asking is that I have seen the new epson MFPs have proper double sided function, print/copy counter, basic ink capacity that last 2-3k pages. In addition, the purchase cost entry is significantly lower, and having multiple units served as backup in case of failure.

In my calculation for example, we could purchase 7-9 epsons for the price of a single 30cpm color MFP copier. One of the downside is the paper capacity for epson though.






Nah, a duplicator is not ideal in our setup.

[allan]

You have to look at the total cost there including the time you are going to be putting in.
Even if you add all 7 of those inkies together the real deal will outlast the lot of them.

Look for low mileage used machines. Could be someone here in your area.

Wrong place to ask about ink-jets...

[Bulakdot]

Wrong place to ask about ink-jets... Why is this so?


Anyways to continue the discussion, for comparison sakes see below.

Four machines 40ppm kyocera MFP A3 color = 1 epson 20590 A3 100ppm color
Six 25ppm kyocera MFP A3 color = 1 epson
Five 20ppm konica MFP A3 color = 1 epson
Five 36ppm konica MFP A3 B/W = 1 epson

From my research on epson 20590, there are still things to be iron out in them and not so many users yet. I don't want to be a test bed either. But the epson I am talking about are the desktop workforce series around 300-400 USD. As long as they bring in profit 3-4 times the purchase price+operating cost in less than a week I think I could throw them away. Business wise it is a win right?


Side question but related one. I am eyeing refurbished canon IR advance 5000/6000 series. How old are they now since introduced to market? 15-20 years?

Thanks

[tsbservice]

Nobody runs shop with inkjets.
If you can find buy second hand low metered 2 KM bizhub C224e/C284e/C364e series. They will be ideal for your volume now and in the future up to 50k monthly also.
Perfect machines, low cost per copy, good quality, very reliable and easy to maintain.

[allan]

Why is this so?


Anyways to continue the discussion, for comparison sakes see below.

Four machines 40ppm kyocera MFP A3 color = 1 epson 20590 A3 100ppm color
Six 25ppm kyocera MFP A3 color = 1 epson
Five 20ppm konica MFP A3 color = 1 epson
Five 36ppm konica MFP A3 B/W = 1 epson

From my research on epson 20590, there are still things to be iron out in them and not so many users yet. I don't want to be a test bed either. But the epson I am talking about are the desktop workforce series around 300-400 USD. As long as they bring in profit 3-4 times the purchase price+operating cost in less than a week I think I could throw them away. Business wise it is a win right?


Side question but related one. I am eyeing refurbished canon IR advance 5000/6000 series. How old are they now since introduced to market? 15-20 years?

Thanks


Toner dusts off ink not so much...
We here are mostly copier guys so the response would probably be biased.
Its not ideal using those inkies but after growing a bit we know what you will need.
In the long term making the right choices now will save you the money and the hassle.

Also not environmentally friendly to treat these products as disposable.

[SalesServiceGuy]

In the fine print, many inkjet printers recommend using higher cost premium or special paper.

For many inkjets if you mark the printed page with highlighter pen, the ink dissolves.

Most inkjets do not have any staple finishing/ folding capability.

[copyman]

Many inkjet vs laser powder toner comparisons have been done and laser always wins in the long run. Most show a bigger laser unit will actually pay for itself in a few years with what you will save buying ink for injets. Industry norm is LASER: 1 penny for B&W and 6 cent for COLOR.
INKJET: Up to to 30 cent for any color !!!

Only thing I can see with having 4 inkjet (throw away's) is 4 x's the ink expense and 4 x's the aggravation !!!

[SalesServiceGuy]

Many inkjet vs laser powder toner comparisons have been done and laser always wins in the long run. Most show a bigger laser unit will actually pay for itself in a few years with what you will save buying ink for injets. Industry norm is LASER: 1 penny for B&W and 6 cent for COLOR.
INKJET: Up to to 30 cent for any color !!!

Only thing I can see with having 4 inkjet (throw away's) is 4 x's the ink expense and 4 x's the aggravation !!!


... and 4x the garbage thrown in the landfill.

I am aware that Espon has introduced some funky new A3 colour inkjets. I have never seen one, I have never competed in a copier quote against one. You have to think the market share is very low.

[D_L_P]

So guys, second post here since my newbie introduction. One of the reasons why I joined this forum is to ask you experts in this trade of your opinion regarding the situation below.

Location: my shop
Number of prints per month: 15-20k (will increase monthly up to 50k based on market forecast)
type of prints: photocopy and prints of school materials / B&W and color / mostly on copy paper or plain paper or bond paper (whatever you call it) / no finisher necessary

My first option is to get a single MFP color copier/printer from leading brands with 30-50 cpm. Now I have been wondering about epson products. What came to mind is to get 3 or 4 epson inkjet MFP with 10-15 cpm. Do you think this is a good strategy?

A while back there was another guy running a print shop with inkjet printers. Some may remember "aab1". Unfortunately, some techs here weren't very friendly toward him. He swore by the same method you mention. Seemed adding paper and ink cartridges several times a day worked out for him.

Check this thread out:
Can any laser printer/copier get a cost per page as low as inkjets? (https://www.copytechnet.com/forums/business-talk/41807-can-any-laser-printer-copier-get-cost-per-page-low-inkjets.html)

[copyman]

Also not sure if it was mentioned (have some people blocked) but what about the ppm speed? That has to be factored in when discussing equip being in a print shop. Usually with a print shop speed = $$$. Faster a run is complete faster you get paid. Even 4 inkjets running same time couldn't beat a Biz 654e or C754e. You can prob get a low meter C654e/754 from off lease wholesaler for no more than $1,500

[allan]

Recently did a setup on a Canon G4411. Against my will obviously.
Seems to check out. Ink straight out of a bottle..
No chips no restrictions. So if you can find that juice cheap it runs cheap.
Cheapest home and small office solution i have seen for reasonable colour.

Fun cleaning out the period pads on those things.

Still not for a print shop.
Riso and now Kyo makes some high speed(150ppm) high volume ink machines with full finishing.

[slimslob]

Unless you want to be down for hour at a time, I would definitely stay away from having a single laser machine. I would also stay away from ink jet unless you do not want to appear to be a professional print shop. I have serviced machines for professional print shop and not one of them used ink jets.

[Bulakdot]

Whoa.. I never expect much replies in this thread so thanks to everyone for the contribution. I appreciate it.



Thanks also for the link to another thread with almost the same question about laser and inkjets. Again, I am new to the industry and hoping to become a nice big shop someday.

So to get to the bottom line, I have a kyocera taskalfa mono laser for bulk copying and printing needs. Then I have the small epsons for the color. Take note that I am not stating print quality here. I would like to emphasize that lower cost per page is the main and deciding factor why customers choose a shop in my area. We have customers that demand print quality no matter the cost. But that is very rare.

I am wondering how other "big" shops (relatively speaking) in my area manage the 0.004 USD per B/W prints A4 page. My kyocera cost 0.01 USD per page (geniune toner) and its brand new with full 10 years contract from Kyocera itself. The other shops are using old canon IR advance 5000/6000 series and they can't keep up with the demand. They're full most of the time. That is why I asked a few post earlier how old those canons are since introduced to market. 15-20 years? Are they that reliable? Most of those units are imported too from Europe or Japan and could be printing millions before they came to our country.



No, never will I try to preach inkjets here. And the biasness in this forum is perfectly fine. I am new to the industry so I am absorbing any inputs from you guys. :cool:

Thanks again!

[Bulakdot]

Nobody runs shop with inkjets.

I am 95% in agreement with you here. However in the next room of my shop sits an inkjet for CAD plotting and it is perfectly fine.




I have posted earlier and its says "wait for the approval from admin for your reply to get posted" or something....

[Bulakdot]

A while back there was another guy running a print shop with inkjet printers. Some may remember "aab1". Unfortunately, some techs here weren't very friendly toward him. He swore by the same method you mention. Seemed adding paper and ink cartridges several times a day worked out for him.

Check this thread out:
Can any laser printer/copier get a cost per page as low as inkjets? (https://www.copytechnet.com/forums/business-talk/41807-can-any-laser-printer-copier-get-cost-per-page-low-inkjets.html)

In case my earlier reply don't get thru, I will re write it here.

DLP thanks for the link. I can't believe its 10 years ago question and now here I am asking the same.


Well to get to the bottom line, my kyocera cost per page is 0.01 USD with full 10 years contract from kyocera itself. Other big shops (relatively speaking) in my area can go as low as 0.004 USD per page. They are almost full most of the time. They use old canon IR advance 5000/6000 series and I heard they were from Japan or Europe. Who knows they are printing millions there and got exported. That is why I asked a few post earlier how old were they 15-20 years? Are they that reliable?


No I am not preaching inkjets here. Sorry if you believe so. I am just a new guy in the industry with lots of questions. The biasness in this forum is not a problem at all..:cool:

Thanks again

[copyman]

The bias here is with good cause. There are many techs with many years of experience on this forum and they are going to always lean towards laser over inkjet. We have seen too many people burned with inkjet. Think that is what was suggested here. You have received some good advice now it's up to you to decide.

Personally if I was to open a print shop I would get one "off lease" Konica Minolta 60+ ppm B&W and one 60+ ppm Color model. Like I mentioned earlier an off lease, low meter Biz 654e or 754e B&W & "C"olor versions would work just fine.

Best of luck

[D_L_P]

In case my earlier reply don't get thru, I will re write it here.

DLP thanks for the link. I can't believe its 10 years ago question and now here I am asking the same.


Well to get to the bottom line, my kyocera cost per page is 0.01 USD with full 10 years contract from kyocera itself. Other big shops (relatively speaking) in my area can go as low as 0.004 USD per page. They are almost full most of the time. They use old canon IR advance 5000/6000 series and I heard they were from Japan or Europe. Who knows they are printing millions there and got exported. That is why I asked a few post earlier how old were they 15-20 years? Are they that reliable?


No I am not preaching inkjets here. Sorry if you believe so. I am just a new guy in the industry with lots of questions. The biasness in this forum is not a problem at all..:cool:

Thanks again

I was working on ir5000's when they came out in 1999? 2000? They were routinely going 250,000 pages before the 1st service. For reference 50,000 clicks between calls was good when these came out. I thought I lost several accounts because service calls were so rare on these. I'd say they are good copiers. As long as parts and consumables are available I'd recommend them. We had one account we removed a brand new Ricoh and put back their ir5000 with 3 million on the meter because they preferred it.

I've seen a couple banks use six HP 9000 printers as opposed to getting one ir150. I never calculated which would have been cheaper. I assumed the banker must have figured it out. I've also seen a print shop use four 20 CPM copiers instead of getting two 50 CPM. Again, I didn't do the calculations but assumed they knew what they were doing.

I know we like to bash inkjets here, but I have to admit some of what aab1 said made sense. Buying ink by the liter and print heads that last 50k would change the cost per page. Epson home printers are ink hogs but the professional photo Epson printers I worked with are great. A few of the print shops I serviced loved them.

[Bulakdot]

I visited shops in nearby cities (I live in the town) and noticed old and large bulky copiers still spitting papers out day in day out. I asked several business owners and sales agents about business strategy. Guess what, they told me to purchase brand new models from KM, ricoh and kyocera. However when you look at their shops, it was those old canon IR 5000/6000 series happily chugging along. Their brand new KMs were just sitting in the corner waiting and waiting... they were relegated to special jobs. Then the noisy inkjets were used for specialty color copies, like 5 to 7 of them. One day it dawned on me that their advises were exactly the things they did NOT do. They're trying to hide the real strategy they were using. 0.004 USD per page is really really hard to beat.


To be fair, maybe the customers in our area dictates the price and quality that is why the setup here might be different in your area.


@copyman, in my area KM only offer biz C658/558/458. I believe they are the successor of 654e/554e. I might give them a call once this COVID issue ends. Thanks

[allan]

I visited shops in nearby cities (I live in the town) and noticed old and large bulky copiers still spitting papers out day in day out. I asked several business owners and sales agents about business strategy. Guess what, they told me to purchase brand new models from KM, ricoh and kyocera. However when you look at their shops, it was those old canon IR 5000/6000 series happily chugging along. Their brand new KMs were just sitting in the corner waiting and waiting... they were relegated to special jobs. Then the noisy inkjets were used for specialty color copies, like 5 to 7 of them. One day it dawned on me that their advises were exactly the things they did NOT do. They're trying to hide the real strategy they were using. 0.004 USD per page is really really hard to beat.


To be fair, maybe the customers in our area dictates the price and quality that is why the setup here might be different in your area.


@copyman, in my area KM only offer biz C658/558/458. I believe they are the successor of 654e/554e. I might give them a call once this COVID issue ends. Thanks

A machine like the Canon pro 1000 would for sure have a place in a print shop for what it adds. That and 36" Roland vinyl printers.
Look for an ex-lease C554e for a good all rounder. Needs to be on contract or in really good PM condition.

I look for them between 300K and 600K trying to find them just after proper service. New fuser and transfer belt is what you are looking for.

[tsbservice]

Look for an ex-lease C554e for a good all rounder. Needs to be on contract or in really good PM condition.

I look for them between 300K and 600K trying to find them just after proper service. New fuser and transfer belt is what you are looking for.

:cool: you know on this model new fuser and transfer belt equals to almost brand new machine ;)

[allan]

:cool: you know on this model new fuser and transfer belt equals to almost brand new machine ;)


Jip the reason I only buy 1 out of every 10 machines I go and look at.

[copyman]

:cool: you know on this model new fuser and transfer belt equals to almost brand new machine ;)

That is why I also hand pick low meter off lease but when I do replace the transfer belt or fuser I rebuild with aftermarket China parts. Both easy to rebuild and save a lot of $$$. Been getting same or better yields as OEM new units!

[copyman]

@copyman, in my area KM only offer biz C658/558/458. I believe they are the successor of 654e/554e. I might give them a call once this COVID issue ends. Thanks[/QUOTE]

See if you can find low meter off lease C654e / C754e. They are still available from my wholesalers. OEM consumable supplies will be cheaper on these older models, ebay etc. Also easy to work on for the end user in print shop, like changing image units, fuser unit, transfer belt, paper feed rollers (removing paper drawers and reaching up inside to replace just the rollers, NOT removing complete PF unit), etc etc

[Bulakdot]

I want to thank everyone in this thread for your inputs. Appreciate it..