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joaopauloooo
09-08-2020, 08:03 PM
Hello,

I'm having an issue with a C360 where I get the jam code 11-01 in tray 1, 3 and 4 every time I try to print, only tray 2 works great.
The paper stops at the separation roller, all rollers are new and I cleaned all sensors. I always use originals.
I removed all trays and cleaned, everything looks good.
How can I solve this?

Attached you can see where the paper stops in tray 1.
46725

allan
09-08-2020, 08:17 PM
In that shot i can't see the rest of the paper stack as if the paper lift plate has dropped.
Things to look at are the one way clutches the paper feed clutches the sensor holders at the back of the machine and the lift motors.
Then there is the torque limiter that can go stiff.
Also the tray plates.

Its common for the sensor holders to break, paper to get stuck behind the tray and for the trays not to close in place properly.


If it has tray 3 and 4 option installed then its driven straight by a motor and no feed clutches.

escalante
09-08-2020, 08:47 PM
This I found in a troubleshooting guide for the Bizhub C452.
I hope it serves as a guide

Synthohol
09-08-2020, 11:47 PM
its the one-ways and burnished shafts. almost almost always.

femaster
09-09-2020, 12:28 AM
its the one-ways and burnished shafts. almost almost always.

I'll second that statement. With the way the edge of the paper in bunched up against the feed tire, it looks like the pickup tire did it's job but the feed tire didn't turn because the oneway is slipping on the shaft. Also take into consideration that with a slipping oneway, it's probably time for tires as well, unless the tires were replaced without cleaning the oneways and scuffing the shafts, which is something should be done at every tire change.

HOSTAKI
09-15-2021, 03:18 PM
I am facing the same problem on a Bizhub C280. I took out the paper feed units 1 & 2 to clean and inspect.
The clutches where found to be working (applied 24V and none of them sliped) so what could be the next to check?

I have also downloaded the service manual (which says its for Bizhub C360/C280/C220) to have a good look but I cannot find the exploded parts diagram of the C280 like this :
Parts Catalog > Konica-Minolta > bizhub C652 > page 39 (https://printcopy.info/?mod=pc&brand=Konica-Minolta&model=bizhub+C652&page=39)
which is the closest I can find and resembles mostly to what I have taken out of the C280.

And a pic of what I have in hand cannot be uploaded ...yet ! Maybe its too big .

I'd really like to know whats the failing oneways (Synthohol mentioned) pointed in a parts diagram.
Thank you

mike_hartung
09-15-2021, 03:31 PM
I am facing the same problem on a Bizhub C280. I took out the paper feed units 1 & 2 to clean and inspect.
The clutches where found to be working (applied 24V and none of them sliped) so what could be the next to check?

I have also downloaded the service manual (which says its for Bizhub C360/C280/C220) to have a good look but I cannot find the exploded parts diagram of the C280 like this :
Parts Catalog > Konica-Minolta > bizhub C652 > page 39 (https://printcopy.info/?mod=pc&brand=Konica-Minolta&model=bizhub+C652&page=39)
which is the closest I can find and resembles mostly to what I have taken out of the C280.

And a pic of what I have in hand cannot be uploaded ...yet ! Maybe its too big .

I'd really like to know whats the failing oneways (Synthohol mentioned) pointed in a parts diagram.
Thank you
Talking about the one way feed bearings right next to the pickup roller and the feed roller. They are called feed clutches in the konica minolta parts book. They fail quite often. Replacing these one-way feed bearing clutches and cleaning the shaft should solve your problem.

ferro10
09-15-2021, 05:36 PM
I'll second that statement. With the way the edge of the paper in bunched up against the feed tire, it looks like the pickup tire did it's job but the feed tire didn't turn because the oneway is slipping on the shaft. Also take into consideration that with a slipping oneway, it's probably time for tires as well, unless the tires were replaced without cleaning the oneways and scuffing the shafts, which is something should be done at every tire change.

can you explain to me why scratches the auction? And how?

I usually clean the auction and bearings without scratching anything and works perfectly.

allan
09-15-2021, 06:49 PM
can you explain to me why scratches the auction? And how?

I usually clean the auction and bearings without scratching anything and works perfectly.


The one way bearings polishes the shafts to a mirror finish. On a smooth surface like that the needle rollers in the one way bearing(clutch) simply does not grip and slips on the polished surface.

You will see the smooth area under the bearing next to the feed and pickup rollers. You can test them by hand to check if they slip but its not a reliable method just try that until you get one that slips just to proof it to yourself.

The guys use a file or some sand paper to remove the smooth surface to give the bearing something to catch on to. See that some guys will over do it and sand away the surface until the shaft becomes to thin!

I take a carpet knife and scribe four nice deep lines perpendicular to the shaft. You will hear the bearings needles jump if you turn them by hand. I do this once and no need to do it ever again. I never change them out with new ones.

The magnetic feed clutches does fail around 500K. I sometimes open and clean them but its a waste of time but does get you out of trouble until you can return with a replacement. If its a machine far from the shop i will take out the bypass tray clutch and strip out and change the clutch plates with the feed tray clutch. That is if they don't use the manual tray.

blackcat4866
09-15-2021, 06:56 PM
I can't pass the opportunity to disagree with these fine folks.

I NEVER damage the shaft further. Most of the time cleaning and adding light oil make the one-way bearings work properly. If it still slips the bearing and/or the shaft must be replaced. Damaging the shaft further will not restore the shaft to it's original size and condition. =^..^=

allan
09-15-2021, 07:02 PM
I can't pass the opportunity to disagree with these fine folks.

I NEVER damage the shaft further. Most of the time cleaning and adding light oil make the one-way bearings work properly. If it still slips the bearing and/or the shaft must be replaced. Damaging the shaft further will not restore the shaft to it's original size and condition. =^..^=


Yes that will be affordable to do but the shaft only in my experience. Don't get it often that a clutch will fail before 250K. Found that my method works ok.

Those one way clutches last forever.

mike_hartung
09-15-2021, 07:10 PM
I can't pass the opportunity to disagree with these fine folks.

I NEVER damage the shaft further. Most of the time cleaning and adding light oil make the one-way bearings work properly. If it still slips the bearing and/or the shaft must be replaced. Damaging the shaft further will not restore the shaft to it's original size and condition. =^..^=

I agree I never would damage the shaft. As long as there are no circular grooves worn in the shaft I would just clean it and apply one small drop of oil where the bearings ride is all that is needed. If the shaft shows wear (grooves felt with a fingernail) I would replace it but this takes 400-500 thousand copies with normal wear. You can use a scotch bright as a last resort but only in the rotating direction. Then come back later to replace the shaft. I always replace the one way clutches when ever I replace a roller and I hardly ever have jamming calls.

Synthohol
09-15-2021, 08:34 PM
The following is my personal POV and experience and in no way is intended to cause controversy with conflicting views from other members

Scuffing the shafts where the bearing ride is done the same direction as the shift from end to end.
Use a 3m scotch Brite or emery cloth just enough to get rid of the mirror finish.
I have never in 23 years heard of using oil on them as the last thing I want is lubrication where I need good grip by the needle bearings.
I don't understand why a lubricant is needed for grip. I scuff the shafts, soak the one-ways in IPA and clean with a rag and a blast with a can of air to dry.
Unless the shaft is worn enough that there is a noticeable 'divots where the bearings ride the method I use has worked literally thousands of times.
Scuffing the burnished shaft in the same direction the rollers turn also does not make sense to me as that will cause the needles to only ride the high spots of the surface instead of better lateral contact.

All you can do is listen to all the advices offered and make up your mind which way to go.
Trial and error will help you form a routine to handle procedures like this.

Short 'for instance'...

I recently watched another tech starting to remove a fuser to replace a t-belt on a 4 series. I laughed out loud. He said it's the only way the belt will come out. I then showed him the 1 stupid screw on the upper guide plate on the t-belt. Removed guide and now the belt comes in and out without obstruction or extra work removing the fuser.

Now it's the only way he does it.
But he had to perform it both ways and made his decision to try it the less laborious way and it all worked out
Good luck and happy trials :)

allan
09-15-2021, 09:16 PM
I don't understand why a lubricant is needed for grip. I scuff the shafts, soak the one-ways in IPA and clean with a rag and a blast with a can of air to dry.

:)

The springs that push the needle bearings out can get sticky. Paper dust i guess. Using IPA or even WD-40 flushes out the muck buildup in there. Also will not use oil in there but get away using WD-40.

Like my method cutting grooves into the shaft bumps the needle bearings and the springs making sure they don't get stuck over time.

One of the manager i worked under insited that i use spray oil on the magnetic clutches!! Tries it on a Ricoh 3025. Instant regret. Fixed it buy soaking them in IPA.

Watched a guy using yellow toner to prime out of the box color IU's....

mike_hartung
09-15-2021, 11:15 PM
The following is my personal POV and experience and in no way is intended to cause controversy with conflicting views from other members

Scuffing the shafts where the bearing ride is done the same direction as the shift from end to end.
Use a 3m scotch Brite or emery cloth just enough to get rid of the mirror finish.
I have never in 23 years heard of using oil on them as the last thing I want is lubrication where I need good grip by the needle bearings.
I don't understand why a lubricant is needed for grip. I scuff the shafts, soak the one-ways in IPA and clean with a rag and a blast with a can of air to dry.
Unless the shaft is worn enough that there is a noticeable 'divots where the bearings ride the method I use has worked literally thousands of times.
Scuffing the burnished shaft in the same direction the rollers turn also does not make sense to me as that will cause the needles to only ride the high spots of the surface instead of better lateral contact.

All you can do is listen to all the advices offered and make up your mind which way to go.
Trial and error will help you form a routine to handle procedures like this.

Short 'for instance'...

I recently watched another tech starting to remove a fuser to replace a t-belt on a 4 series. I laughed out loud. He said it's the only way the belt will come out. I then showed him the 1 stupid screw on the upper guide plate on the t-belt. Removed guide and now the belt comes in and out without obstruction or extra work removing the fuser.

Now it's the only way he does it.
But he had to perform it both ways and made his decision to try it the less laborious way and it all worked out
Good luck and happy trials :)

Yes the needle bearings must move slightly in and out. Turn the bearing one direction they move away from the shaft to allow rotation. Turn the other direction and they move toward the shaft to grip it. This movement of the needle bearings gets sluggish after dust, metal particles, and dirt get up in there. They don't move toward the shaft freely enough so you get a loss of grip. if you are reusing the same one way clutches by all means clean them with a solvent or WD-40 to get the crud out. Even soak a Q-tip and clean them out. I don't clean them unless I have to. I rather replace the one-way bearing clutches if I even suspect they are failing. I use one small drop of oil to lubricate the needle bearings to keep them moving in and out freely. Keeping the needle bearings moving freely is the most important way to keep them gripping the shaft as long as the shaft if in good shape. Grooving the shaft in the opposite direction of rotation only causes the needle bearings to jump up and down as they rotate accelerating wear greatly in my opinion. I have been working with one way bearings for 45 years and I think I know what works.

femaster
09-16-2021, 02:05 AM
Yes that will be affordable to do but the shaft only in my experience. Don't get it often that a clutch will fail before 250K. Found that my method works ok.
Those one way clutches last forever.

I agree. In my 8-years working with KM, I have only ever replaced a set of oneway bearings once, and that was when I first started out. The machine probably didn't need them, but I was inexperienced with KM machines at the time and didn't know any better. Cleaning them at every tire replacement, yes, but have never had the need to replace.

Taking some Scotchbright and lightly scuffing the area where the bearing rides works perfectly. We have many machines out in the field with well over 3-million pages through them, and have never needed to change a oneway on any of them. Scuffing the shaft(s) has had no ill effect on the oneways ability to grab and work properly on those or any of our other machines. The shaft only needs a light scuffing, just enough to remove the mirror finish and dull the area where the bearing rides. If any metal is removed at all by doing this, it is so minimal that it makes no difference at all.

HOSTAKI
09-17-2021, 10:24 AM
Talking about the one way feed bearings right next to the pickup roller and the feed roller. They are called feed clutches in the konica minolta parts book. They fail quite often. Replacing these one-way feed bearing clutches and cleaning the shaft should solve your problem.


I have uploaded a video of the actual two paper pick ups I am talking about
Please see this and comment !
https://youtu.be/2u3UIhsaHBU

You see something sliping ? I don't.

tsbservice
09-17-2021, 12:44 PM
I have uploaded a video of the actual two paper pick ups I am talking about
Please see this and comment !
https://youtu.be/2u3UIhsaHBU

You see something sliping ? I don't.
You cannot test easy sleeping OWs. Better swap them with second(working) paper feed drawer ones to see.

HOSTAKI
09-17-2021, 01:27 PM
You cannot test easy sleeping OWs. Better swap them with second(working) paper feed drawer ones to see.
Both of the Trays (1&2) have the same issue .
Could it be that the main motor is giving that pick up problem ?

Anyone have the Bizhub C280 specific parts diagram on a link somewhere ?

tsbservice
09-17-2021, 01:33 PM
...

Anyone have the Bizhub C280 specific parts diagram on a link somewhere ?

Parts Catalog > Konica-Minolta > bizhub C280 > page 16 (https://printcopy.info/index.php?mod=pc&brand=Konica-Minolta&model=bizhub+C280&page=16)

ferro10
09-17-2021, 02:01 PM
I have uploaded a video of the actual two paper pick ups I am talking about
Please see this and comment !
https://youtu.be/2u3UIhsaHBU

You see something sliping ? I don't.

pick up rollers are to be changed.
Clean the metal shaft surely the unidirectional clutches slip.

HOSTAKI
09-17-2021, 02:59 PM
the unidirectional clutches slip.

That would be the number 11 on the parts diagram
Parts Catalog > Konica-Minolta > bizhub C280 > page 16 (https://printcopy.info/index.php?mod=pc&brand=Konica-Minolta&model=bizhub+C280&page=16)

ferro10
09-17-2021, 03:28 PM
That would be the number 11 on the parts diagram
Parts Catalog > Konica-Minolta > bizhub C280 > page 16 (https://printcopy.info/index.php?mod=pc&brand=Konica-Minolta&model=bizhub+C280&page=16)

yes

copyman
09-17-2021, 11:38 PM
The following is my personal POV and experience and in no way is intended to cause controversy with conflicting views from other members

Scuffing the shafts where the bearing ride is done the same direction as the shift from end to end.
Use a 3m scotch Brite or emery cloth just enough to get rid of the mirror finish.
I have never in 23 years heard of using oil on them as the last thing I want is lubrication where I need good grip by the needle bearings.
I don't understand why a lubricant is needed for grip. I scuff the shafts, soak the one-ways in IPA and clean with a rag and a blast with a can of air to dry.
Unless the shaft is worn enough that there is a noticeable 'divots where the bearings ride the method I use has worked literally thousands of times.
Scuffing the burnished shaft in the same direction the rollers turn also does not make sense to me as that will cause the needles to only ride the high spots of the surface instead of better lateral contact.

All you can do is listen to all the advices offered and make up your mind which way to go.
Trial and error will help you form a routine to handle procedures like this.

Short 'for instance'...

I recently watched another tech starting to remove a fuser to replace a t-belt on a 4 series. I laughed out loud. He said it's the only way the belt will come out. I then showed him the 1 stupid screw on the upper guide plate on the t-belt. Removed guide and now the belt comes in and out without obstruction or extra work removing the fuser.

Now it's the only way he does it.
But he had to perform it both ways and made his decision to try it the less laborious way and it all worked out
Good luck and happy trials :)

This has been discussed several times on this forum and I agree with you 100% and have done the same thing for many years with scuffing the shaft from end to end direction, cleaning one ways with alcohol & blowing out with canned air. Think I recently posted this was told to me at Kon/Min school many years ago. I posted it after some discussion about scuffing "around" the shaft. Also NO lube!
If you are still getting "misfeeds" with new PF rollers, take out the PF unit and clean one ways & scuff shafts properly, it works!

Oystercopy
09-18-2021, 01:25 AM
Just my 2 cents, but..

Almost never have had to replace worn shafts, except back in the 80s on Panasonic feeders.

On the newer machines, like KM, the shafts are a stronger steel, and don't wear down to the point they require replacement.
However, using scotch brite (or other abrasive) to wear down the shiny part of the shaft is the only thing I would ever consider doing any more. In fact, the KM machines are built so well that
I almost NEVER have an issue with one way bearings on these boxes whatsoever.

But if you're going to take the time to service them, just getting the gloss worn down on the shafts is all you really need to do. And I don't put lube on them, to be sure. I believe this would complicate the
needle bearing's ability to grip and release the shaft the way they should. But referencing the old Panasonics again, on those boxes you could physically SEE the area under the bearing actually WORN DOWN to
the point where shaft replacement was required. Now, on those bearings, we did pack them with grease, because the theory was that the wear factor on the shafts would be too great, so we needed something to
"push" the needles more towards the shaft, so that they would have better gripping capability, and that seemed to work, especially if you didn't have new shafts and bearings in your car stock at the time.

Hope this helps someone!
OC

copyman
09-18-2021, 02:47 PM
Just my 2 cents, but..

Almost never have had to replace worn shafts, except back in the 80s on Panasonic feeders.

On the newer machines, like KM, the shafts are a stronger steel, and don't wear down to the point they require replacement.
However, using scotch brite (or other abrasive) to wear down the shiny part of the shaft is the only thing I would ever consider doing any more. In fact, the KM machines are built so well that
I almost NEVER have an issue with one way bearings on these boxes whatsoever.

But if you're going to take the time to service them, just getting the gloss worn down on the shafts is all you really need to do. And I don't put lube on them, to be sure. I believe this would complicate the
needle bearing's ability to grip and release the shaft the way they should. But referencing the old Panasonics again, on those boxes you could physically SEE the area under the bearing actually WORN DOWN to
the point where shaft replacement was required. Now, on those bearings, we did pack them with grease, because the theory was that the wear factor on the shafts would be too great, so we needed something to
"push" the needles more towards the shaft, so that they would have better gripping capability, and that seemed to work, especially if you didn't have new shafts and bearings in your car stock at the time.

Hope this helps someone!
OC

Agree about the newer Kon/Min one ways not needing as much attention like some models in the past. Can't tell you how many times I've cleaned the one ways on the BizHub C203 series, definitely 100's of times back in the day when these were in service! Seems like every call I was cleaning the one ways, or for a long time was replacing the one ways. And it sucked on that model to get the PF units out, i.e. taking off manual feed tray etc etc. Much easier on the newer models.

Then a friend from Kon/Min told me he has "never" replaced the one ways so from that day on I've only replaced a few, cleaning & scuffing has always worked.

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