White lines @ magenda 3551ci

[BillyCarpenter]

I'm pretty sure this is a DV problem, but I'd like to see what you guys think. The DV unit has about 250k. Same for drum. The PCR has about 10k on it. The rest of the colors look good. I haven't haven't pulled anything out of the machine to look at it. They said they were busy and asked that I come back today.

Thanks.

[BillyCarpenter]

Sorry, I forgot to post example. See below:


48429

[Samanator]

Kyocera used to have those big ziplock bags that came with the machines. Those were to put the paper in to keep moisture out. I have hung on to a few of those to carry a bit of 11x17 paper.

When I encounter stuff like what you are describing, I run U089 > Color Belt > Start > System Menu > Start. I put 11x17 paper in the machine if there is not some in there already before running Color Belt. I like using 11x17 because it lets me know what's going on with all the drums, developers, charger rollers, transfer belt, and even fuser. If the customer doesn't have 11x17 I get out my own. I usually use a drawer instead of the bypass (MP tray...OK I'm old school) because it's easier to configure. I never know how someone has set the bypass, so I use a drawer.

With that color belt printout, I can see at a glance most of what's going on with the above-mentioned components. For each color, there is a small strip that is 100% and a larger area that is 50%. One can use 8.5x14 paper, but to me, that will not give the full view of what's going on.

I find this to be a useful tool.

[Samanator]

From the look of your sample, I'd clean all the charger rollers first. I say all the charger rollers because if you open it up to clean one, you might as well clean them all.

Believe it or not, I have had techs just clean the one and then have to go back later to clean another charger roller at a later date.

[BillyCarpenter]

Kyocera used to have those big ziplock bags that came with the machines. Those were to put the paper in to keep moisture out. I have hung on to a few of those to carry a bit of 11x17 paper.

When I encounter stuff like what you are describing, I run U089 > Color Belt > Start > System Menu > Start. I put 11x17 paper in the machine if there is not some in there already before running Color Belt. I like using 11x17 because it lets me know what's going on with all the drums, developers, charger rollers, transfer belt, and even fuser. If the customer doesn't have 11x17 I get out my own. I usually use a drawer instead of the bypass (MP tray...OK I'm old school) because it's easier to configure. I never know how someone has set the bypass, so I use a drawer.

With that color belt printout, I can see at a glance most of what's going on with the above-mentioned components. For each color, there is a small strip that is 100% and a larger area that is 50%. One can use 8.5x14 paper, but to me, that will not give the full view of what's going on.

I find this to be a useful tool.


There was no 11x17 paper in their office. However, the 100% strip looks fine @magenga. See below:


48430

[Samanator]

Still think you oughta clean the charger rollers first.

[BillyCarpenter]

Still think you oughta clean the charger rollers first.



I'll check it out but I just replaced it about a month ago. What's concerning me is the perfectly straight white lines. I seem to remember blackcat showing a similar pattern that had to do with a bad laser. I hope that's not the case.

[Samanator]

When I go out to a Kyocera, I most always run the laser cleaner twice before I run a color belt. If the different colors are kinda streaky on the 50% color band on the color belt printout, then that's an indication to me that the charger rollers have gotten dirty. Many times it's only one color that shows up streaky on the color belt. Crappy paper can affect these charger rollers as well as a bunch of other stuff. The thing is, charger rollers get dirty, and that affects CQ. Even though only one color may look bad when you run a color belt, when you pull out the charger rollers most all of them have some degree of contamination. That is white rotational buildup on the surface of the charger roller.

I have been told by many Kyocera guys and other reliable sources that the only thing to clean charger rollers with is a rag and water. That's it, and nothing else.

Once I've cleaned the rollers, developer refresh once, and color registration > auto before I go.

[BillyCarpenter]

When I go out to a Kyocera, I most always run the laser cleaner twice before I run a color belt. If the different colors are kinda streaky on the 50% color band on the color belt printout, then that's an indication to me that the charger rollers have gotten dirty. Many times it's only one color that shows up streaky on the color belt. Crappy paper can affect these charger rollers as well as a bunch of other stuff. The thing is, charger rollers get dirty, and that affects CQ. Even though only one color may look bad when you run a color belt, when you pull out the charger rollers most all of them have some degree of contamination. That is white rotational buildup on the surface of the charger roller.

I have been told by many Kyocera guys and other reliable sources that the only thing to clean charger rollers with is a rag and water. That's it, and nothing else.

Once I've cleaned the rollers, developer refresh once, and color registration > auto before I go.



I was scheduled to go to the machine today, but this is a busy medical office and they freak out if the copier will be down more than 5-minutes. They called and said they'll get back with me when they want me to come out. Who knows when that'll be.

The first thing I'll check is the PCR's. Thanks.

[blackcat4866]

I was scheduled to go to the machine today, but this is a busy medical office and they freak out if the copier will be down more than 5-minutes. They called and said they'll get back with me when they want me to come out. Who knows when that'll be.

The first thing I'll check is the PCR's. Thanks.

I'm going with developing. Its unmistakable. =^..^=

[BillyCarpenter]

I'm going with developing. Its unmistakable. =^..^=


That's what I was thinking. Sounds like you've seen this before?

[tsbservice]

How long these magenta drums are supposed to last? 250k is damn good counter in my KM world.
At the ends your testprint has diagonal voids which is distinctive for developer depletion but I would swap M drum unit with another first if possible then you will know for sure.

[BillyCarpenter]

How long these magenta drums are supposed to last? 250k is damn good counter in my KM world.
At the ends your testprint has diagonal voids which is distinctive for developer depletion but I would swap M drum unit with another first if possible then you will know for sure.


600k. Although, from by limited experience I haven't seen them make it to that. I've seem 'em make 450k.I'm talking about the DV units.


The drums are also rated at 600k. From what I read on here the drums usually are good for 600k or close to it.

[tsbservice]

600k. Although, from by limited experience I haven't seen them make it to that. I've seem 'em make 450k.I'm talking about the DV units.

From my general experience developer units can fail anywhere between 10-100% of their stated life(depending on many circumstances). Same for drums but usually their stated life is 2-3-4 times less.
So at 250k your drum(cylinder) may need replacement too due to OPC layer worn and fatigued.

P.S.
Please don't take my words for granted in your particular problem as Kyo isn't the brand I'm working on in normal circumstances.

[BillyCarpenter]

From my general experience developer units can fail anywhere between 10-100% of their stated life(depending on many circumstances). Same for drums but usually their stated life is 2-3-4 times less.
So at 250k your drum(cylinder) may need replacement too due to OPC layer worn and fatigued.

P.S.
Please don't take my words for granted in your particular problem as Kyo isn't the brand I'm working on in normal circumstances.


I always pay attention to your advice, tsb. You've helped me out a lot in the past. Thanks.

[blackcat4866]

That's what I was thinking. Sounds like you've seen this before?

Yes. If a developer refresh doesn't clear it up, then the magenta developer.

[tsbservice]

I always pay attention to your advice, tsb. You've helped me out a lot in the past. Thanks.

Hmm I'm kinda out of my comfort zone talking about things I don't know in debts. So you cannot replace 2 color drum units easily - to exclude whole drum unit? BTW, 600k drums really...I don't doubt it but how you Kyocera guys make it out of contract machines? I mean every client should buy the machine and say Goodbye to the service for ages. In example KM C364 color drum units have like 20% of your drums stated life.

[blackcat4866]

The biggest undocumented service contract expense, as far as I'm concerned, is the endless stream of enduser resolvable calls, that they make no attempt to resolve "because we have a service agreement".

Dirty slit glass
Poorly loaded paper
Incorrect print driver settings
Incorrectly loaded toner
On & on ...

All resolvable if anybody tried.
=^..^=

[Samanator]

Well, I have been proudly wrong before.

Just ask any of my exes. :o

[tsbservice]

The biggest undocumented service contract expense, as far as I'm concerned, is the endless stream of enduser resolvable calls, that they make no attempt to resolve "because we have a service agreement".

Dirty slit glass
Poorly loaded paper
Incorrect print driver settings
Incorrectly loaded toner
On & on ...

All resolvable if anybody tried.
=^..^=

Agree. Been there done that. Plus we do it remotely for them just to save our travel time plus many hours of talking with clients on phone trying to explain how to change toner, paper format, etc.

[BillyCarpenter]

Customers are the hardest thing to fix. The majority of my customers are good and that's the way it's been at any placed that I worked for. But then here's how I'd break down the problem ones.


1. Assholes - no explanation needed.

2. Dumb - No matter how much training you give them, 2 day later they act is if they've never heard that before.

3. Technical Wizards. - These people think that they know more than the tech. They'll try to tell us how to do our job or they don't believe us when we tell them something. Some may try to work on the machines themselves. They usually cause a lot of damage by sticking a letter opener in the fuser to remove a jam or something along those lines.

It's the part of the job that I hate the most.


Rant over.

[BillyCarpenter]

I don't feel like starting a new thread so I'm gonna post this here.


You can read all the service manuals you want, but NOTHING takes the place of experience. Many of the problems I'm seeing, I'm seeing for the first time. And most of them look different from the old days. I've seen failing DV units many times. Can't recall one that ever left the finite white lines like I posted in the previous example. The only reason I suspected the DV unit was the swirling white void areas.

Today I ran into a failing transfer belt for the first time. I was able to identify that almost right away because it was affecting all the colors, but still it was my first time seeing one fail. For the most part I see the same problems over and over and that's kind of boring, but at this point boring is good.


See failing transfer belt below:


48438


48439

[BBM]

The transfer belts seem to hold up well and it seems when they start to get a bit "rough and scaly" is when we start having issues with them.

[BillyCarpenter]

I cut the transfer belt off of an old unit and the backside of the belt looks totally different than the top side. It appears to me that the top side has a rubbery coating that is applied to the belt.



I'll preface what I'm about to say: I don't have enough experience on these machines as of yet, but I've noticed that sometimes a streaky belt doesn't really affect the prints. But on the picture that I posted above, that pattern showed up on every page. I didn't try to clean the belt...I replaced it. I have that belt at the shop and I may try to clean it just to see if it will work. I have no idea if it will.

What's been everyone's experience on a streaky belt?

[blackcat4866]

What's been everyone's experience on a streaky belt?

Regardless of what you use to clean it, you have to do 200+ prints to clear the streakyness. I was not satisfied with the results and probably will not repeat it on the Kyocera rubbery belts. I would probably try an orange oil based cleaner followed by an alcohol wash.

tmaged claims that the Blow Off branded cleaner works, but I don't have personal experience to confirm that. Maybe worth buying a couple of cans just to see what happens?:
https://www.amazon.com/Blow-Off-2222-Electronics-Cleaner/dp/B000V6T5BI

I'll be interested in your results. =^..^=

[BillyCarpenter]

Regardless of what you use to clean it, you have to do 200+ prints to clear the streakyness. I was not satisfied with the results and probably will not repeat it on the Kyocera rubbery belts. I would probably try an orange oil based cleaner followed by an alcohol wash.

tmaged claims that the Blow Off branded cleaner works, but I don't have personal experience to confirm that. Maybe worth buying a couple of cans just to see what happens?:
https://www.amazon.com/Blow-Off-2222-Electronics-Cleaner/dp/B000V6T5BI

I'll be interested in your results. =^..^=


I removed the cleaning bar/pad and blade from the transfer unit. I blew out the unit with an air compressor. I then cleaned the belt with a rag and water. That did nothing to remove the black streaks. I then cleaned a small area with a rag and alcohol. That quickly took the gray rubber coating down the the underneath black surface.


I think what's happening with this belt in particular is that the the cleaning blade wears down the gray rubber surface and over time/use it becomes thinner and thinner. I'm gonna install the belt in a bit and see if any of this made a difference.

[BillyCarpenter]

Well, the test pages look better but not good enough. My final opinion is to not clean/rub the belt itself. You can clean the blade, cleaning roller and pad and blow it off. Other than that, I think it's a waste of time and may do more harm than good.

PS - I do recommend to periodically clean the cleaning roller and pad. Especially the pad. I found a lot of crud under the pad and I believe it's creating wear lines on the belt.

Edit: Quick note. When I checked U465/Stress, the rear reading was 1945 and that's where the streaks are found. Stress for front of belt = 2500+.


See pictures below of belt after cleaning and test prints:



48451



48452

[blackcat4866]

Did you notice that you have bad magenta developer spacers on your test machine?

I came to the came conclusion. the belt is too delicate to survive cleaning. =^..^=

[BillyCarpenter]

Did you notice that you have bad magenta developer spacers on your test machine?

I came to the came conclusion. the belt is too delicate to survive cleaning. =^..^=



Yeah, I swapped the magenta DV. I didn't realize it was the spacers. What clued you in that it's the spacers?

[blackcat4866]

On fill areas >65% you'll see bubbly voids, either to the front or to the back of the page. It's rare to have both developer spacers fail at the same time. Early on, Kyocera came out with a bulletin that future developing units would have the heavier duty developer spacers found on the KM-6551ci (though you could not purchase them separately).

This is one of my major complains with Kyocera's color sample page: only very small areas of the sample page have anything but 30% fill. I very nicely hides the developer spacer failure.

48455

=^..^=

[BillyCarpenter]

On fill areas >65% you'll see bubbly voids, either to the front or to the back of the page. It's rare to have both developer spacers fail at the same time. Early on, Kyocera came out with a bulletin that future developing units would have the heavier duty developer spacers found on the KM-6551ci (though you could not purchase them separately).

This is one of my major complains with Kyocera's color sample page: only very small areas of the sample page have anything but 30% fill. I very nicely hides the developer spacer failure.

48455

=^..^=


Man, those void areas that you circled were bugging the hell out of me. I knew it was the DV unit but I couldn't put my finger on the exact cause. That would have bugged me forever it you wouldn't have told me what it was. That DV unit was out of an old 3550ci so I'm sure they had the old style spacers that you're talking about.

PS - I've started using the test charts that you sent me. Thanks for that, also.

[tonerleak]

That's why I always run U89 using 11x17 paper, that way you get a complete picture of what's going on. This has been an ongoing issue with these models, we've replaced countless dev units, was ok when they were under warranty, not so much after. The new models seem to have the issue resolved.

[BillyCarpenter]

The more experience I get on the Kyocera 1-series, the more I'm getting familiar with their weaknesses. I mean, all copiers have weak areas and I really don't have anything to compare them to in terms of other manufacturers. Not hands on experience, anyway.


Today I encountered another failing DV unit. This time it was the black one. The black coating had worn off the mag. roller at 256k. That's about half of the rated yield. The most pages I've ever gotten from one of the DV units is a little over 400k.


For the most part, I find the machines to be reliable. But the DV units are one of the weak area if you're expecting to get the rated yield. Disappointing.

[blackcat4866]

I'm not sure how Kyocera calculates their consumable yields, but they are optimistic at best.

Here's another little thing to watch for on this series: If you reach for the primary charge unit, and you notice rust dust on the handle, most likely the drum ground contact/drum shaft needs conductive grease. I can produce some intermittent strange quality issues.
=^..^=