Biz C224e misfeed

[copyman]

Has to be something simple & stupid I'm missing! Tray 1 paper stops at sep roller and has dent in middle of lead edge. Had two machines do it in one day. New rollers fixed the one but not the other.
Only 50k clicks on this machine that is still doing it after new rollers. Suspected sep roller tourqe limiter was tight and put a light oil on it but didn't help. Can't believe with all the "4" series I've worked on and never seen this. Could it be the the one ways? Only replaced the rollers because of low meter, didn't even take the one ways out. With higher clicks I remove the feed unit and clean or replace one ways, scuff up shafts, clean mag clutches with electronic contact cleaner, etc. But cheated here by removing paper drawer and just replacing the rollers.

Thanks in advance for the help

[patrickjlc]

What about the mylar at the cassette?

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[rrrohan]

if you remove the sep roller and load a single sheet of paper in tray does it feed through ok

[Synaux]

Might not be relevant, but are you using the ribbed rollers or just the good ol orange ones?

Did you try to run any cardstock?

[copyman]

if you remove the sep roller and load a single sheet of paper in tray does it feed through ok

This account is close to my shop so will try this. Thanks

[copyman]

Might not be relevant, but are you using the ribbed rollers or just the good ol orange ones?

Did you try to run any cardstock?

Yes replaced with OEM new style ribbed P/U roller & feed but machine already had a ribbed roller in it.

Funny you mentioned about card stock was going to bring some different types of paper to try.

That sep roller keeps jumping out at me as the problem. It seems really tight but they always do to me. Not sure if this sep roller torque limiter is tighter then normal? Was going to replace that first when i go back. If it don't work will report back with everyone's suggestions posted here.

Thanks again

[copyman]

What about the mylar at the cassette?

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Will check again but everything looked normal. First thing I checked was for obstruction, etc.

Thanks will let you know what I find when I go back.

[femaster]

I've seen the crumpled edge like that when the feed tire one way is slipping and the pickup tire is trying to push the paper between the feed and separation tires. You would probably see some sort of skid marks on the paper from the pickup tire along side the crumple mark if that were the case. At only 50K I really wouldn't think the one way would be the problem though, but I've seen stranger things.

I've also seen issues with overly stiff torque limiters like you were talking about. If you have a spare limiter I'd try that out first, as it's the easiest and fastest test, before resorting to removing the entire feed unit assembly to buff the shafts.

[tsbservice]

Agree with femaster. Easiest test ever I do to swap all 3 tyres, 2 oneways and torque limiter between 2 standard paper feed drawers. That should almost 100% work until I ger back with some parts. On high mileage machine I tend to swap all 6 pieces together when rollers are due.

[blackcat4866]

Jam codes? =^..^=

[copyman]

Jam codes? =^..^=
Thanks Cat but jam codes will not help with this one. This isn't a jam rather a misfeed. Your eyes are jam code in case like this, consistent with paper stopping same place every time with dent in middle, never feeding out of paper tray.

Going to the customer's today and will report back what it was.

[copyman]

Agree with femaster. Easiest test ever I do to swap all 3 tyres, 2 oneways and torque limiter between 2 standard paper feed drawers. That should almost 100% work until I ger back with some parts. On high mileage machine I tend to swap all 6 pieces together when rollers are due.

What about scuffing up the shaft where one ways go, I use scotchbrite pad? I always do this when replacing one ways.

[blackcat4866]

Sorry, I don't know what the difference is between a jam and a misfeed? There should still be a jam code recorded. And all my database entries are based on jam code ONLY, not some visual of where a piece of paper stops. =^..^=

[copyman]

Sorry, I don't know what the difference is between a jam and a misfeed? There should still be a jam code recorded. And all my database entries are based on jam code ONLY, not some visual of where a piece of paper stops. =^..^=

Technicians each have their way of troubleshooting and lingo. After 40+ yrs in biz my old school way of thinking is if paper has not left the paper tray / drawer / cassette (old school lingo) it's a misfeed. If out of tray far enough to reach transport / registration rollers it's a jam.

So in this case you look at jam code and it registers tray one "jam". Now what? NO help at all! This is where the troubleshooting begins and "visually" see the dent in paper and go from there.

[copyman]

Thanks everyone for the input. Turns out it was the Sep roller torque limiter. After confirming it was that I removed the PF unit and replaced one way's after scuffing up shafts. Already had the new tires I put in a few days ago. So now everything has been done and should be good for a while.

For all the US Technicians Happy 4th. God Bless America

[femaster]

What about scuffing up the shaft where one ways go, I use scotchbrite pad? I always do this when replacing one ways.

I can honestly say I've almost never replaced a one way. Generally a cleaning of the one way with alcohol and scuffing of the shaft with scotchbright is all that is needed to get things back to operational. I do this every time I change out the tires.

[rrrohan]

I can honestly say I've almost never replaced a one way. Generally a cleaning of the one way with alcohol and scuffing of the shaft with scotchbright is all that is needed to get things back to operational. I do this every time I change out the tires.

i dont scuff. my logic is if it helped it would come like that out of the factory

[femaster]

i dont scuff. my logic is if it helped it would come like that out of the factory

If you want to get technical, they do come out of the factory like that. The metal shafts are not perfectly smooth from the factory, they have fine grooves in them from being turned in a metal lathe during production. The shafts eventually get "polished" completely smooth under the one ways and then the one way will begin to slip on the shaft instead of griping it. If someone were to simply clean the one way, or even replace it, it would still slip as the shaft is too smooth for the one way to get a consistently good grip on it. I bring back that slight coarseness to the shaft surface, by scuffing it with Scotchbright, which prevents the one way from slipping. By scuffing, we are not talking about creating deep gouges in the surface, only a matter of roughing up the surface a bit.

If it didn't work I wouldn't bother doing it, as there is no point in doing more work than is necessary. If I didn't scuff the shafts the one ways will generally start slipping before the new set of tires reach half their life cycle. With scuffing, I never have to worry about them slipping at all, which means less service calls and a happier customer. Because of this, I'll continue to scuff the shafts where the one ways ride, and if not scuffing yours works for you, have at it.

[rrrohan]

i get the logic i used to do it on the old C353's and C220s but havent done it since the 4 series released. i think they re designed the bearings which must of fixed it cause they used to be blue and now are all black

[Synaux]

Well Scotchbrite (which contains both Aluminum oxide and Titanium oxide) it is rated at around 1000 grit. (google told me so).

Those that have ever done any wet-sanding know that is not much.
Especially on a metal shaft (in this scenario, I assume 304 stainless).

More likely what you are accomplishing is clearing debris off the shaft:
In particular, the metal and plastics from the bearing embedding itself into the microscopic surface of the shaft.

In fine, there is almost no reason not to unless you forgot the scotchbrite or have sore fingers... :rolleyes:

(If I remember to do it, I have a few used spare shafts that I will test this theory out and post some microscope picks. And hell, if someone sends me a new shaft [not that I need one] I can put this puppy to bed :cool:)

[copyman]

Just my preference, emery cloth works best out of everything I've tried.

What ever is used the most important thing is to "sand" in direction of shaft length not "around" the shaft. You want to rough up shaft so pin bearings inside clutch grab shaft. If you sand "around" the shaft it could actually help bearings to slip.

[srvctec]

Just my preference, emery cloth works best out of everything I've tried.

What ever is used the most important thing is to "sand" in direction of shaft length not "around" the shaft. You want to rough up shaft so pin bearings inside clutch grab shaft. If you sand "around" the shaft it could actually help bearings to slip.

That's exactly the opposite of what we've found. Since the shafts all come from the factory with micro grooves in them from the machining process, we sand around the shaft to put it back to factory like condition. We tried sanding along the shaft with the logic you have but found that it caused a ridiculous amount of jams and when sanding back to like the factory, the issue was solved.

[copyman]

That's exactly the opposite of what we've found. Since the shafts all come from the factory with micro grooves in them from the machining process, we sand around the shaft to put it back to factory like condition. We tried sanding along the shaft with the logic you have but found that it caused a ridiculous amount of jams and when sanding back to like the factory, the issue was solved.

Sanding along the shaft was what they teach at Konica Minolta factory training school. Appreciate the advice but have to keep doing what has been working for me. Been doing it for many years and never had an issue.

[Synaux]

That's exactly the opposite of what we've found. Since the shafts all come from the factory with micro grooves in them from the machining process, we sand around the shaft to put it back to factory like condition. We tried sanding along the shaft with the logic you have but found that it caused a ridiculous amount of jams and when sanding back to like the factory, the issue was solved.

Random thought.... Probably a helical pattern (in the right direction) is the most appropriate. :cool:

[srvctec]

Sanding along the shaft was what they teach at Konica Minolta factory training school. Appreciate the advice but have to keep doing what has been working for me. Been doing it for many years and never had an issue.

I'm KonicaMinolta factory trained on a crapload of machines and have never seen it taught that way in class, to sand along the shaft.

BTW, I wasn't giving advice but just stating what works for us and has for decades which is the way we'll continue to do it. We don't have to agree, you know.;)


Random thought.... Probably a helical pattern (in the right direction) is the most appropriate. :cool:

Probably so!

[copyman]

I'm KonicaMinolta factory trained on a crapload of machines and have never seen it taught that way in class, to sand along the shaft.

BTW, I wasn't giving advice but just stating what works for us and has for decades which is the way we'll continue to do it. We don't have to agree, you know.;)



Probably so!

I agree it's ok not to agree:)
Will keep in mind if way I've been doing it ever doesn't work. Options are always good to have.

Only thing techs can do on this forum is post what works for them. Most techs have their way of doing things. So if a few different methods of doing something is posted it's up to the reader to try them and see what works best for them. Either way I think it's a valuable tool for fellow techs!