eco p3150 continuing image quality problem

[tmw]

Hi, I just wanted to try again with this submission. Seemed to have problems with this unit since it was put in January. I have an attachment when magnified it looks as though miniature lightning bolts are zapping the toner making little spikes downward from the print. It is original toner. I have cleaned the entire paper path, contacts, transfer roll, static teeth, charge roller, and around drum blade. I tried upper and lower adjustments to transfer, charge roller, density, and performed drum refresh. Had no change.  I returned and put in a brand new transfer roller. It didn't eliminate the problem, but seemed to reduce it at the time. I don't know if it will get bad again.  Earlier it was getting bad build up on the pressure roller. I don't know if it might be related. I replaced the fuser, heavy build up went away, but still had a few specks show up. I would have expected that it shouldn't come back at all.  Anyway I'm having trouble tracking down info at the moment. Machine only has 87,000 pages, problems started long before.   Thanks for taking time out to look at this.  

[blackcat4866]

Have you replaced the primary charge unit? I've noticed that after a while the rubber seal on the primary charge unit will "charge up" and attract paper dust and toner, then drag it over the drum. New units don't seem to do this. And cleaning is only a short term fix. =^..^=

[tmw]

Well, cleaning didn't really do anything in the first place. I called kyocera tech support and sent them a print sample. They couldn't say for certain either. They suggested replacing the drum. I still can't see why it would happen at such a low page count.

[dalewb74]

what does the power situation look like?

[PrintWhisperer]

There was a fuser mod for wear around 250k but this looks more like some transfer scatter I have seen in certain applications. It was once described as 'Flares' and they are always in the trailing direction. I imagine toner piles being scattered by static pressure going into the transfer roller.

The angle of attack is to thin out the toner pile and if necessary slow the machine down some.

The only way to get at this is driver settings.

Set the KX driver to KPDL mode and in Preferences go to the Imaging Tab and there are a few things to experiment with;

1) Half Speed Mode
2) Graphics Button - Line Thinning/Correct Fine line
3) Print Quality - Draft/Custom

You should be able to get a reasonable reduction in the defect.

By the way, any altitude or humidty factors pushing the limits here? Is it very dry or high where the device is?

GL!

[tmw]

This is in a typical midwestern temperate zone. No particular sustained extreme. I’ll try those settings. I’ve never seen them before. There’s something I wonder still. It does it on internal prints too. Will driver settings correct this also ?

[JR2ALTA]

No. internal prints eliminate the driver.

So it's a lot to read, am I correct that you replaced toner, fuser and transfer roller but not drum or dev unit? I would try those (drum first) definitely and submit under warranty.

[PrintWhisperer]

No. internal prints eliminate the driver.

I was not saying it is caused by the driver, only that driver settings have been seen to make it better.

Believe me, I chased this on 2 different occasions, once even with a special production transfer guide. That case was more pronounced on label stock.

In the other case I believe local firmware was written. All of which I would expect to have been worked into this model.

You can try setting the media type up/down as well to see if it effects it.

[spw]

seems like youve eliminated most of the issues of it being the machine. i would look at taking a different brand of unopened ream of paper and checking to see if the bleeding of toner is still consistent. Also would check the texture of the paper even if its normal 20lb.

[spw]

If the texture is different even though the paper is the same weight print whisperer is right on. You'll have to slow the machine down so the fuser can get a consistent bond with the toner to the paper

[Rainer]

Hello,

FYI: I have the same problem with my p3145dn (2000 pages, Original Toner).

But I do not fix this, because amazon will send me a new printer.

Strange effect, I've never seen it like this!

If I increase the fusing temperature (for example "thick paper") the effect becomes stronger ... (The picture shows this).

[Rainer]

Now amazon has sent me a brand new printer. It also makes these spikes (printout status page, menu plan, etc ...).

Now I'm a little perplexed ...

The serial numbers differ significantly, and smaller details also seem to be different, but both are "made in Vietnam".

The effect occurs with different types of paper. I have already connected the printer to a different power-socket, checked whether L, N and PE are also present (230V AC here in Germany), enviromental conditions are not unusual (20 degrees, 60% humidity). The effect is there even without a network cable (only printer connected to the socket).

Let's see what the Kyocera Support has to say about it these days ...

[PrintWhisperer]

Hello,

FYI: I have the same problem with my p3145dn (2000 pages, Original Toner).

...

If I increase the fusing temperature (for example "thick paper") the effect becomes stronger ... (The picture shows this).


Do you mean you changed the media type to Thick and used 20lb because this is the type of test I was posting about earlier in the thread, but fuser temp is not the only thing that gets changed.

What we are interested in here is the Transfer bias which must also be increased for thick paper. You should try a lighter weight setting (up to the point where fusing is insufficient), and the driver settings as well.


It is a problem only seen on this small printer engine and systemic as all your replacements have the same problem. They may have pushed the speed for this design too far as the toner particle size gets finer and finer.


I love your example because the toner is clearly blasted out of the line with white streaks where is has been removed. Like tiny solar mass ejections from mag field lines, always away from the direction of movement.

[Rainer]

What we are interested in here is the Transfer bias which must also be increased for thick paper. You should try a lighter weight setting (up to the point where fusing is insufficient), and the driver settings as well.


I don't see something like that as a solution, at best as a work-around. The problem still persists. Because what do I do if I want to print on thicker paper, then I cannot leave the parameters on "light" and the problem is there again!

If kyocera cannot fix the problem with other firmware, the devices have a bad design for me and I will not use them.

Another observation is perhaps interesting: When I got the first printer (2021-03) the air in the office was very dry. (30-40%). I couldn't see any spikes, but there was a slight toner shadow under thicker lines. Perhaps there may be no connection, but perhaps it is possible that a slight shadow can be seen in very dry air, which becomes "spikes" in more humid air (currently 60-65%) ...

[tmw]

Just got back from visiting this again. Put in a warrantee drum. Still looked like it was making image defect. Since people were mentioning paper types, I went to confirm settings. I found a setting under plain paper that was calling for heavy 1. I set it to normal 1, and it started printing properly. I don't know where this setting was before, and when I went back to look at it again and confirm it for all cassettes, it seemed to disappear once more. Weird, but at least it's working.

[Rainer]

Weird, but at least it's working.

For me the case has cleared up:

In general, these devices are sensitive to moisture in the paper. The effect that can be seen in the photos is called the "Obiki effect" at Kyocera. It is created by the water evaporating in the fuser unit, which "blows" the toner off before it is fused.

This is also the reason why the service manual specifies a humidity of 36 to 65% for printing with optimal quality, although the printer itself is specified up to 80%.

In my case, two things came together: On the one hand, the paper was "at the limit" with up to (or more?) 65% moisture, on the other hand the firmware was out of date, and Kyocera still carried out some optimizations here.

It is also clear: If the paper is (too) moist, the greater the fusing temperature, the greater the effect.

PS: (Factory default ist "normal 2" for plain paper).

[PrintWhisperer]

For me the case has cleared up:

In general, these devices are sensitive to moisture in the paper. The effect that can be seen in the photos is called the "Obiki effect" at Kyocera. It is created by the water evaporating in the fuser unit, which "blows" the toner off before it is fused.

This is also the reason why the service manual specifies a humidity of 36 to 65% for printing with optimal quality, although the printer itself is specified up to 80%.

In my case, two things came together: On the one hand, the paper was "at the limit" with up to (or more?) 65% moisture, on the other hand the firmware was out of date, and Kyocera still carried out some optimizations here.

It is also clear: If the paper is (too) moist, the greater the fusing temperature, the greater the effect.

PS: (Factory default ist "normal 2" for plain paper).

Great observation on the moisture content, what device did you use to measure it? I have been looking into the standard 'Wood/Paper' moisture meter with 2 electrodes (resistive) but they start pretty cheap and I wonder at their accuracy.

I'm not sure I agree with the 'water vapor outgassing' theory as the effect is a bit too directional and 'fine-lined'. Moisture induced micro-arc would seem more apt.

Has anyone done a panic stop in between transfer and fuser to see if the effect is fuser induced?

[Rainer]

Great observation on the moisture content, what device did you use to measure it? I have been looking into the standard 'Wood/Paper' moisture meter with 2 electrodes (resistive) but they start pretty cheap and I wonder at their accuracy.


I do not measure the moisture from the paper itself but the moisture in the air (with an electronic measuring device, uncalibrated). And here I can make the observation that exactly corresponds to the statements made by Kyocera in the service-manual: If the humidity rises to 65% (or above), "quality losses" can be seen on the printouts. (There is a delay in this, because with increasing humidity the paper takes a while to also become more humid).

And vice versa, the printouts are okay if the humidity is well below 65%.

[PrintWhisperer]

I do not measure the moisture from the paper itself but the moisture in the air (with an electronic measuring device, uncalibrated). And here I can make the observation that exactly corresponds to the statements made by Kyocera in the service-manual: If the humidity rises to 65% (or above), "quality losses" can be seen on the printouts. (There is a delay in this, because with increasing humidity the paper takes a while to also become more humid).

And vice versa, the printouts are okay if the humidity is well below 65%.

Good to know. The SM comments are more along the lines of atmospheric effects where humidity effects charging and DV bias. They (japanese engineers) generally don't get that specific on paper moisture content, expect paper is sold in moisture proof wrappers, and even provide plastic zip-lock bags for storing partially opened reams....not that any customers use them;)

However with the new Ink-jet machines from Kyocera, moisture and curl are critical factors so I am trying to assess using a meter to actually measure the paper's mositure content.

[Drivee]

I think that this is air bubble in toner. When pressure roller and fuser start to bake toner, it explode and push toner out from line.

[Rainer]

I think that this is air bubble in toner. When pressure roller and fuser start to bake toner, it explode and push toner out from line.

You mean, if you succeed in ordering "air-bubble-free toner", there is no effect? I think it clearly has to do with the moisture, which can also be observed well. (no effect at i.g. 60%, effect there if 65% or more ...). The kyocera support has also confirmed this behavior and it is documented in the service manual.

[Drivee]

Good to know.

I have some cartridges which give me same effect. Change cartridge that problem disappear. Only difference between cartridges is a toner.

[Rainer]

Change cartridge that problem disappear.

Well, nothing can change immediately after changing the toner, because it takes a while for the new one to get onto the paper via the developer unit ... Could it be a coincidence that the humidity changed after the toner was changed?

[Drivee]

I know that, I need 300 pages to reach new toner. Depend of coverage. Humidity is same, as I am in toner recycle business, I did talk with Japan about that problem. Their explanation is air bubble.... However, I am 100% sure about it, they will sometimes talk to me kids stories. I mean, for Kyocera, most easy way is to point finger on end customer and printing environment. Imagine that they say: We bay bad toner and settings of printer sometimes need to be changed.

I think that in this cause.. only toner from DEV section is bad.

[Rainer]

Maybe the effects are different. I have observed this moisture-dependent effect on two p3145 machines, with completely different serial numbers and production periods. I think it is unlikely that the original toner supplied with both devices will be bad ...

[Drivee]

And you print with both machines +500 pages?

[Rainer]

yes, 1500 and 3000 pages, each with the original toner supplied. The production period of the two machines is about 1 year apart.