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cmitch
07-20-2022, 05:07 PM
We've been printing a lot on the 1051 but I have seen an increase in toner usage. More than usual. This morning, I checked counts and noted developer is at 971,000 out of 1,000,000. I know many printers that try to beat all they can out of developer but I'm just not one of them. I remember some time ago, while it was still under service, we started getting a gritty dusting on the sheets. Developer was at 950,000 plus. After further study, we realized it was, indeed, developer beginning to dump. It was changed and grit went away. I guess I've never took note of increased toner usage but recovery box was changed Monday and it is already a tad less than half full. I am wondering if it is anyone else's experience that developer going bad can cause excess toner usage?

emujo2
07-20-2022, 06:29 PM
If you are getting H toner then this is the issue..The majority of my 1100, 1052 and 61XX are only getting 1/3 to 1/2 of the copy volume prior to this crappy H toner..In many shops I am replacing developer at 25K (in many cases this is daily). E

tsbservice
07-20-2022, 08:15 PM
If you are getting H toner then this is the issue..The majority of my 1100, 1052 and 61XX are only getting 1/3 to 1/2 of the copy volume prior to this crappy H toner..In many shops I am replacing developer at 25K (in many cases this is daily). E

Nothing wrong but I'm wondering where is near 1 million compared to 25k :confused:
Some of our office machines(20-40ppm speed) are nearing 500-600k developer life working with mostly H toner last year.

cmitch
07-20-2022, 08:32 PM
I apologize but what does H toner mean?

emujo2
07-20-2022, 08:45 PM
The toner available since the KM Plant fire..

emujo2
07-20-2022, 08:48 PM
Nothing wrong but I'm wondering where is near 1 million compared to 25k :confused:
Some of our office machines(20-40ppm speed) are nearing 500-600k developer life working with mostly H toner last year.

H toner for the office machines just meant 1/2 bottles..For production equipment the H was a different toner. It runs, but the quality is not there..I don't think the H toner had the same affect on the color production machines.

cmitch
07-20-2022, 09:24 PM
So you're saying the toner that is in the pipeline now isn't 119,000 sheets yield at 5%? $179.00 a bottle???? Machine just stopped printing, telling me to exchange toner recovery bottle. It was full! I checked it this morning and it was a tad under half. I changed it Monday. No way I've run anywhere near 357,000 sheets since Monday. Not even a third of that. But I just put my 4th and last bottle in this morning. I'm coming up with 42,000 11 x 17 copies, mostly type, since Friday. 3 bottles of toner?? Wow. Def something wrong here.

emujo2
07-20-2022, 09:47 PM
Yes..if it's H toner we are seeing massive drops in impressions per bottle. I have a few machines it does not seem to affect, but anyone with graphics or a high %...it's really bad. Again this only seems to affect the B&W production TN 014, 015, 016, 017..All of this toner is exactly the same, just different bottles. E

Woxner
07-20-2022, 10:08 PM
Its not just developer is high that can cause toner issues what is drum volume. This can also cause high toner useage. 25k is a bit much to be doing. 500k would be ok. Are you running the dev adjustments?

cmitch
07-20-2022, 10:17 PM
Its not just developer is high that can cause toner issues what is drum volume. This can also cause high toner useage. 25k is a bit much to be doing. 500k would be ok. Are you running the dev adjustments?

I'm not really sure what this statement means. We regularly get 900K+ out of developer with no issues. Drum is 544,000 out of 1,000,000. I usually change drums around 750k. Very few last to 1,000,000. This is a new issue to us. Never seen toner consumption like this before. I found a pre fire bottle of TN011. We're going to see how long that one lasts. I run drum and developer adjustments when I install. Never had to do either in mid flight except an occasional drum sensitivity adjustment.

Synthohol
07-20-2022, 10:42 PM
...I run drum and developer adjustments when I install. Never had to do either in mid flight except an occasional drum sensitivity adjustment.
i hope you are not running the developer adjustments without changing the developer. the adjustment is for the precise TCR that is in a new bag(s) of developer.
once toner goes into the DV unit the adjustment is worthless and can\will cause extreme toner usage.

cmitch
07-20-2022, 11:58 PM
i hope you are not running the developer adjustments without changing the developer. the adjustment is for the precise TCR that is in a new bag(s) of developer.
once toner goes into the DV unit the adjustment is worthless and can\will cause extreme toner usage.
No. Absolutely not. I know it screws with the developer and density settings. That is one good way to ruin developer. We had an idiot service guy reset all the settings counts. Drum, fuser web, developer. Developer had 750,000 life left on it and dummy set it to zero. They had to prematurely replace it. Idiot took out about $1000 worth of parts resetting the web counter because the end of the web got caught in the machine taking out fuser rolls, drum, cleaning blade, etc. we were finding pieces of web all in that machine. It was going out of service so he didnít want any lights coming on to replace parts under service. Iíd still like to punch him in the face.

blackcat4866
07-21-2022, 12:45 AM
If you're at 950K on that developer, and you have doubts about it's quality, I think I'd change that developer now. Think of it this way ... you're changing the developer 5% early or you got 95% of yield.

Different toner batches can definitely affect toner density and image quality. Yes, it's common for the developer to tend to overtone or undertone as it reaches yield.

I wouldn't sweat the 5% early. Change that developer. =^..^=

cmitch
07-21-2022, 01:37 AM
If you're at 950K on that developer, and you have doubts about it's quality, I think I'd change that developer now. Think of it this way ... you're changing the developer 5% early or you got 95% of yield.

Different toner batches can definitely affect toner density and image quality. Yes, it's common for the developer to tend to overtone or undertone as it reaches yield.

I wouldn't sweat the 5% early. Change that developer. =^..^=
Iíve used 4 bottles of toner in less than 100,000 11x17 copies. No coverage. Just type. I have a much bigger issue than developer. It makes a lot of sense it is a toner issue because this is a different batch. Developer comes out Monday. I wonít be there the rest of the week. When I left for the day, developer was on 993,000. Copies look great. I replaced entire developer unit last time because magnetic pick up roll was weak.

blackcat4866
07-21-2022, 02:07 AM
Iíve used 4 bottles of toner in less than 100,000 11x17 copies. No coverage. Just type. I have a much bigger issue than developer. It makes a lot of sense it is a toner issue because this is a different batch. Developer comes out Monday. I wonít be there the rest of the week. When I left for the day, developer was on 993,000. Copies look great. I replaced entire developer unit last time because magnetic pick up roll was weak.

It will confirm your suspicion about the toner if you change the developer, then the image degrades in about 25K prints. The good news is that just changing back to the better toner will bring back the quality (when the developer is new).

tmmdmmm
07-21-2022, 03:04 AM
I don't have any of these so can only offer insight based on casual conversations with other techs.

Wasn't there a whole thing about 1) Having to replace the developer and completely flush out the hopper/Dev every time you make a switch from non-H to H or H to non-H
and 2) Need to enable a toner saving mode to use H toner?

Havn't heard any techs here mention IQ issues or lack of volume as long as those are followed, users just needed to make sure to use all of their stock of one before switching back since the Dev and hopper needs to be flushed for the change

cmitch
07-22-2022, 06:37 PM
Update 1: Developer is now expired. Last bottle of toner in. This is a different brand. Generic. It has already outlasted any of the last 3. I have one bottle of pre fire OEM coming Monday and when I change developer, I'll put it in. No question the 3 bottles I had are garbage toner. The quality of the copy went up tremendously even though developer is expired. I seen a slight tint on the last 1000 copies at operator side of sheet. No question developer is done. I have 3 more bottles of OEM that is definitely post fire coming in from ARC services. Crossing fingers.

wjurls
08-03-2022, 04:25 PM
Developer on this line typically needs replaced between 750k and 1 Mil. If you have excessively dusty paper (or dust the collectors removed) you may see a lot less. Also, if the developing unit has 5 million or more clicks on it you may want to consider replacing it. I once tried using some generic toner to save a few bucks (yeah I know) for one of my direct mail customers (4 x 1051's) and within a week there was toner everywhere!! What a debacle that was.

Oystercopy
08-04-2022, 07:13 AM
I'm not sure the original question was answered, but I'm throwing my 2 cents in. Absolutely, when developer gets old, and it has agitated through the unit for many thousands of pages, the magnetic beads of the developer get beat down, become smaller, and typically, the developer becomes more porous. Therefore, the machine has to saturate the developer with more toner to keep the density levels up, and satisfy the toner/developer ratio setting. Over the decades, seemingly on every machine, I typically see higher toner usage (more saturation) on developers that are old.

Plus, as someone else said, if you're getting 95% of the yield out of the DV, you've got your money's worth and I would change it, just on principle, at that point.

Hope this helps.
OC

cmitch
08-04-2022, 06:02 PM
Developer replaced, new bottle of genuine toner installed. Developer adjustment done for new developer and counter reset. Been running saddle sticth books all morning. All seems to be well. When I get back from vacation, I have to replace upper fuser roll. When lower one went, it took the upper with it but couldn't get one until about two weeks ago. Already had to replace lamps due to broken wire on one.

I replaced developer unit on last developer change so we have 4 million to go on it.

On to toner consumption. I blame it all on the toner. Bottles were literally only half full. No way that was going to get us 50,000+11 x 17 copies. Plus, quality of toner was pretty much suspect. With toner shortages, I felt I've had no choice but to dabble in generics or not print at all. The first 3 bottles of generic toner was fantastic. This was a different company and it was bad. Tried ordering from the original company but they were out. I'm running our Ricoh 7100SX a lot for B&W because I can get comfortable trims out of paper since it has a maximum sheet size of 13 x 19.2 (also 13 x 47 banner). Good for 6 x 9 books with bleeds.

Tech09
08-08-2022, 10:29 PM
"H" toner is Katun. As long as you're not mixing the two types of toner you should be ok if you're starting with fresh developer, but don't use OEM toner and "H" toner with the same developer. IMO, until the OEM toner is guaranteed to be in stock stick with the "H".

Markks
08-11-2022, 03:46 AM
attaching bulletin about H toner. it also has attachments embedded in it for each model

ipconfig
09-18-2022, 10:54 AM
Theatrically only good developer can transfer toner. Yes, developer is coated iron filings and it is gritty. Sounds like developer toner concentration is too high. Machine should go 1.1 million between service calls.

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