C451 thick paper problems

[Kmdurrin]

I have a customer who uses their C451 for printing booklets/customer information fliers. They are using a heavy card stock (within the machines listed paper types), and will only run this paper from their 1500 sheet tray. The problem is this: I am having to replace the tray feed rollers about every 5000 to 8000 copies. Looks like the paper is coming up to the feed system with the lead paper edge in the center of the feed roller. The paper will then start to chip away at the rollers until they no longer function, then I get the dreaded "machine keeps jamming" call. Any ideas on how to get the paper to move a little better out of the tray?

PS - I know that thicker paper is supposed to be run out of the bypass tray on this model, but the customer is dead set on running it all out of the machines standard paper tray (because the salesman said she could).

[Mr Spock]

What type of paper? what is the weight? Cardstock can be different things for different people. If they refuse to use it as the user guide specifies then that is misuse of the copier and all parts and labor are billable. If the sales department wants to pay then let them but I would bill them. If it was the bypass then the rollers would be covered. Also if they do not choose the correct thickness then the color may not be correct either.

[graphshooter]

you could place the paper feed assist plate p/n:A00J P001##

[methogod]

I have seen this before as well, even with paper as "normal" as 28 lb laser paper, which will print well for 500 prints, then 1 or 2 bad ones, then back to printing well.

Solution for this is to select thick 1, and print from tray 1, either SEF or LEF, it shouldnt matter.

If they are dead set on using the larger trays, I would recomend selling them the LCT, which will allow up to THICK3 from it, should fix alot of issues, the biggest of all is that THICK3 (at least with the fiery) will print slightly slower than normal paper, as it slows down through the fuser.

LCT should only cost (on ebay or second hand) around 250 bucks.

You can upsell it for 999.00 or even more.

[emujo]

Replace the Pick up roller with the one from the Bizhub 750/751. It will need to be shaved lengthwise a few mm, but it fits perfectly on the shaft and won't need to be replaced anytime soon. Looks like a 4x4 truck tire!!!

[Kenny]

They have just relesed a fix for this problem and it works very well so far ! if its still causing you a problem let me know and i will get one of my engineers to email the parts we changed and also the new part numbers

Cheers

dac@copiercompany.co.uk

[methogod]

Seems that no matter what setting (Thick 1 up to Thick3), both using the internal control and fiery) anything thicker than 60lb gloss laser, will show lines(in the direction of the paper flow), being told its fuser lines, so i paid $450 and replaced the fuser, and after around 70K, again their back, if i have keep replacing the fuser this is not the right machine for my client.

He keeps asking for a c6500 or c6501, I tell him I can promise it wont be any different, I myself am not trained on the production color machine's, but one of my tech are and he can't be sure either.

My question is if i do get them a c6500, will the same issue occur? As it's going in a "print shop" and my client keeps comparing the quality to a XEROX DOC250 that he has access to, my hands seem tied. HE HAS CLIENTS TO ANSWER TO, AND I ANSWER TO HIM - AS THE ACCOUNT IS HIGH VOLUME. i feel obligated to go out of my way to get this working

I want to get the c451 to work as KM says it can, and I have seen it go 300K without issues at ther clients, but they use heavy paper much less.

any advise?

all paper used is within spec, feed from tray 1 or the bypass. Also there are minor issues with the fiery, as the internal control will auto duplex upto thick 3 from tray 1 and the bypass, but the fiery won't.

I wonder if there is fiery firmware is needed to be updated, I need to fix that issue as well.

any advise will be helpful....

thanks as always...

[Stirton.M]

Seems that no matter what setting (Thick 1 up to Thick3), both using the internal control and fiery) anything thicker than 60lb gloss laser, will show lines(in the direction of the paper flow), being told its fuser lines, so i paid $450 and replaced the fuser, and after around 70K, again their back, if i have keep replacing the fuser this is not the right machine for my client.

He keeps asking for a c6500 or c6501, I tell him I can promise it wont be any different, I myself am not trained on the production color machine's, but one of my tech are and he can't be sure either.

My question is if i do get them a c6500, will the same issue occur? As it's going in a "print shop" and my client keeps comparing the quality to a XEROX DOC250 that he has access to, my hands seem tied. HE HAS CLIENTS TO ANSWER TO, AND I ANSWER TO HIM - AS THE ACCOUNT IS HIGH VOLUME. i feel obligated to go out of my way to get this working

I want to get the c451 to work as KM says it can, and I have seen it go 300K without issues at ther clients, but they use heavy paper much less.

any advise?

all paper used is within spec, feed from tray 1 or the bypass. Also there are minor issues with the fiery, as the internal control will auto duplex upto thick 3 from tray 1 and the bypass, but the fiery won't.

I wonder if there is fiery firmware is needed to be updated, I need to fix that issue as well.

any advise will be helpful....

thanks as always...

Well...

Paper stock can be an issue of itself. Are you speaking about waxing marks on the image? What I mean is, you print a solid black on one of those GL stocks and you can see what look like tire tracks if you angle the sheet in light a certain way? Or are you talking about scrape lines?

As for the C6500, this machine is leaps and bounds way over the abilities of the C451, or for that matter, many levels more than the xerox. Far better image quality controls, both from a tech point of view and user point of view. You get what you pay for...the 6500 mainbody alone is worth 2 fully loaded C451s. Your support costs will be much higher based on consumable use, but customer productivity will equate to much higher click count revenue.

Replacing the fuser on a c451 is a bit extreme. Though we have seen a rash of problems with that series fuser units, much of the time it is either a damaged pressure roller or faulty bearing on the cleaning brush. The rest of the time, no real issues, regardless of paper stock used. We have these in print shop environments as well and gloss paper is pretty common.

Can you scan us a sample of your problem for further evaluation to what your problem is?

As for the machine, what is the firmware on the copier currently, and the fiery, what is the system version and what patches are currently there? Do a printout of the fiery config sheets. Usually there are 2 sheets for configuration. EFI has lately changed programming to print a third sheet "IF" any patches were applied and lists them there. Scan those for us here as well.

[methogod]

I thought the fuser was just as is, no replaceable parts?

can you provide part numbers? or are these items outside the furser.

my tech told me to just replace it.


thanks,

[Stirton.M]

I thought the fuser was just as is, no replaceable parts?

can you provide part numbers? or are these items outside the furser.

my tech told me to just replace it.


thanks,

The fuser isn't serviceable...that is, it isn't meant to be serviced. Simply replace it. However, my question wasn't about repairing the fuser or even replacing it. I wanted to clarify the problem you are seeing in yours with sample prints, then I, as well as others here, can see what your problem is and help you resolve it without replacing a fuser.

As I said, we have many of this series, C450, 550, 650 and a few of the newer generations like the 552 and 652. Fusing units on these haven't given us quality problems, only mechanical ones. I suspect your problem is somewhere else and not the fuser. But as I said, without a scanned sample, I cannot tell you more.

[methogod]

https://acrobat.com/#d=INE0jnS279JT6HOD6a8vcQ

https://acrobat.com/#d=QkQqkbz2ybc0UsJ-1Ylv9Q


two samples, one at high res, and the other two compressed.

One of them is 14mb.

let me know what you think.

thanks,

[Stirton.M]

Sorry about this. For some reason I did not get a notification of your reply. Doing a search through some of my posts I found this one incomplete.

The second link you provided asks me to login to the site.

I recommend that you make use of this forum's attachments. Much much more reliable and local.

But I get the general idea what your problem is on the first page.

Note at the bottom of the page the problem is more pronounced but as you move toward the top, the problem vanishes within the blues, but anywhere there is black, the image defect is present.

In tech rep, do a halftone test on all four colours. My bet is that your black IU is failing judging from what I am viewing in your samples. It may also simply be dirt on the laser window below the IU. Use the cleaning wand on that to make sure before you pop the IU for a new one.

There is a possibility the transfer belt might be bad as well. Generally, if the surface is nice and shiny with no blemish lines, the belt is fine. If there are any blemish lines (dull lines worn into the surface), these will cause issues, though this will affect all 4 colours, not just one.

The fusing unit is certainly not likely the cause of this problem. Not sure who might have directed you to do that. Perhaps there was another issue that wasn't mentioned here?

Truth be told, there is little preventing this machine from doing high volume, even in card stock, though I would recommend the LCT as others have mentioned if they are primarily doing heavy stock of anything heavier than 203gsm, up to a maximum of 10pt. Anything thicker, there is no guarantee that this machine will do well, if at all. 6500 will handle 10pt quite well, and depending on the paper brand, some varieties of 12pt. Do not try to duplex anything above 8pt thickness. Both machines will have jamming issues because of the number of bends the paper must make in the path. If duplex is needed, split the job into separate single sided runs.

32843285

[RRodgers]

https://acrobat.com/#d=INE0jnS279JT6HOD6a8vcQ

https://acrobat.com/#d=QkQqkbz2ybc0UsJ-1Ylv9Q


two samples, one at high res, and the other two compressed.

One of them is 14mb.

let me know what you think.

thanks,

I would say Black or Cyan Dev unit.

[methogod]

Thank for the help, but when i print on regular 28lb paper, i will have 100 good prints, then one messed up one. where the black is off by a few MM or looks like it just didnt fuse to the page well.

I ordered the newer fuser as i have the orginal (the newer one ends in -22) has some fixes that the orginal didnt have. I will try to print the color test and post the results. I do print only 1 sided on 10pt and 12pt but only from tray 1, the fiery will only allow me to pull from the bypass or tray 1.

thanks...

[Stirton.M]

Hmmm....in tech rep, under machine settings, you have two adjustments that are available. One is temperature adjust. From the manual...

Functions • To adjust individually the temperature of the heating roller and the fusing pressure roller for each type of paper, thereby coping with varying fusing performance under changing environmental conditions.
Use
• When fusing performance is poor, or wax streak or offset occurs when the type of paper is changed or environmental conditions change.
• Use when the curling of the paper due to the paper type or environmental change occurred, or when the paper jam, as well as stapling or folding position error occurred due to the curling of the paper.
• By setting the temperature higher (+), gloss of print can be improved.
• By setting the temperature lower (-), exit roller mark can be reduced.

Paper type Setting range step
Plain Paper -20 °C to +5 °C 5 °C
OHP Film -20 °C to +5 °C 5 °C
Thick 1 -20 °C to +5 °C 5 °C
Thick 1+ -20 °C to +5 °C 5 °C
Thick 2 -20 °C to +5 °C 5 °C
Thick 3 -20 °C to +5 °C 5 °C
Thick 4 -20 °C to +5 °C 5 °C
Post. -20 °C to +5 °C 5 °C
Enve. -5 °C to +5 °C 5 °C

Adjustment
Instructions
If fusing performance is poor, increase the setting.
If wax streaks occur, decrease the setting.
If offset is poor, decrease the setting.
If curling of the paper occurs, decrease the setting.
Setting/Procedure
NOTE
• To adjust the fusing temperature, adjust on the heating side first. If the further adjustment is necessary, adjust on the pressure side.
1. Call the Service Mode to the screen.
2. Touch these keys in this order: [Machine] → [Fusing Temperature].
3. Select the paper type and fusing roller type (Heater Roller or Pressure).
4. Enter the new setting from the [+] / [-] key.
5. Touch [END] to validate the adjustment value.
6. Return to the basic screen.
7. Output two or three test printing and check to see whether the image has any problem.
8. Make the adjustment for each type of paper.

[Stirton.M]

Hmmm...strange that I use the same font that formatted well in notepad but it sucks here. Hopefully you can understand that table in the middle.

The second setting is fuser transport speed. Adjust that according to the job you are doing.

Of course, the problem you are describing does not appear to be normal behavior of this machine. We have about a dozen of these model lines in a variety of print shop environments and have never encountered any issues regarding printing of anything, aside from thick stock issues, which there are workarounds.

You said your fiery doesn't allow to print thick stocks from other trays. It should, and the only restriction would be duplex for paper stocks set at thick 4 (bypass tray and LCT).

What is the firmware level of the copier. Recommended firmware level to G00-R6 or G00-R5 (even with version R6, the MFP will display R5 in the MSC section of the firmware display screen).

What version is the fiery system? Print a fiery config sheet, it should be amongst the first few lines of the printout. Latest version of the IC409 is Version 1.01. There are an assortment of patches available for both version 1.0 and 1.01. I do recommend to upgrade to version 1.01 and apply all the patches that are applicable to this customer's needs.

Also, ensure the driver you are using is the correct driver for the fiery and is NOT the MFP driver, there is a difference. The best bet to ensure you have the correct driver is to download directly from the fiery. Login to the copier via pagescope, there should be a Fiery logo in the user screen. Click that and you should be presented with the fiery details. One tab allows you to download the software that is fiery related, including the drivers, all OS specific to either windows or mac. Also ensure the driver is properly configured. If there is a firewall preventing the driver from properly acquiring the options, set the permissions accordingly. This is most likely the reason you cannot set paper weights for any of the other drawers.

The fiery tools also contains a copy of command workstation. Though this one is fine (version 4), I recommend to download version 5.1 from efi... Fiery Command WorkStation 5 (http://www.efi.com/cws5)

Command workstation is indispensable when dealing with a fiery controller. To see it in action is to be a believer. If you follow that link, I believe there is an interactive on the web page to demonstrate what it can do.