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Rudi
04-22-2010, 06:04 PM
Hi guys , i was just wondering about the proper life span of a copier , reason for this is because we get alot of techs asking questions about copiers that i have forgotten about and today i had a machine that was installed by our company in 1998 the machine was still in good nick but i told the customer it is unrepairable because i know if we had to repair it the dude will keep bringing it back so i reffered him to sales.Personally i think it should be no longer than 3 years and used machines should be scrapped and thrown away (recycled in other words).

fixthecopier
04-23-2010, 12:14 AM
What did the salesman tell the customer the life was? I worked on a 10 year old analog because the salesman told him it would last 15 years, and he expects to get it. These service agreements that get renewed every year keep you working on junk. It would be great to only have newer machines in the field, but life aint gonna work that way!

blackcat4866
04-23-2010, 01:14 AM
I rely on the availablity of parts. Depending on the model, that could be anywhere from 7 to 15 years. The main factor is whether that model was popular. I still see, and work on HP LJ8100, HP LJ5si, HP LJ4000. Just as long as I can get the parts. But I never promise, or even hint at how long that time period might be. It really comes down to whether there is a market for the parts suppliers to cater to. =^..^=

fixthecopier
04-23-2010, 12:32 PM
Don't forget the old trusty LJ4, I love those things.

bilyahn
04-23-2010, 02:39 PM
We have a few machines that we service on a regular basis that are 10 - 15 years old and are working great for the customer. When I get asked this question I normally answer that it is like a car (since some of them cost that much LOL). Lease agreements are normally for 5 years so the machine should have a life expectancy of, at least, that long. But I also tell the customers it depends on the availibility of parts, for Sharp it seems they keep stock on their machines for 10 years. We have local competitors that sell people a machine and then in 3 years tell them they can't get parts, that's a poor business practice if you ask me. It either means the company sells junk or doesn't care about the product they sell.

Bil

Ducttape n Glue
04-23-2010, 03:16 PM
The actual lifetime is determined by the manufacturer in its design criteria and should be available from each. From that determination, I believe it is plus one year for spare parts availability, after that time it is what ever the manufacturer has left in stock. It is all calculated in the beginning as to expected units sold and spare parts mortality and etc, etc. Heck, one time Xerox wanted to sell me all there Xerox 2510 spare parts inventory and they had thousands of parts left 20 years after the introduction of the copier. My experience shows most manufacturers are pretty well stocked up to about 7 years after discontinue date. Your mileage may vary. If you want a specific timeline, ask your manufacturer for the "Lifetime of the product" as they determined in their design criteria.
In the US auto industry I know they follow a 10 years after model year, spare parts will be provided. Is it a law, a statutory requirement, I don't know and I don't know if there is a specific law for spare parts in the copier printer industry. There is also "Voluntary" and "Statutory" as key words in any requirement.
If anybody is a member of BTA, they can ask for a legal opinion. Please keep us informed if you do.

Also, Rudi, since I see you used the term " good nick" I figure you are outside the US and may very well follow a different set of standards.

cobiray
04-23-2010, 03:23 PM
The machine will last as long as you can get parts. I wouldn't tell the customer this as it will counter act new sales, but in reality it's the truth. Light use machines (read oversold) will last longer than heavy used machines (read undersold). Environment also has an effect on the longevity. If you're looking for a rule of thumb go with 5 years.

Vulkor
05-24-2010, 08:08 PM
We "hope" to have customers get new machines every 5 years. Many of their machines barely last that long with 35cpm machines going over 1.4million. I prefer 30-45 cpm machines to be retired before 1mil. 15-28cpm 500K is a good mark. Anyone machine 51cpm or higher "should" last in the millions easy with proper maintenance. But Analog and First Gen Digital. Are really getting hard to get parts for. We've done our best to get most of those out of the field.

10 years is insane, but sadly we have a few that are pushing 15.

jonhiker
05-24-2010, 09:05 PM
We "hope" to have customers get new machines every 5 years. Many of their machines barely last that long with 35cpm machines going over 1.4million. I prefer 30-45 cpm machines to be retired before 1mil. 15-28cpm 500K is a good mark. Anyone machine 51cpm or higher "should" last in the millions easy with proper maintenance. But Analog and First Gen Digital. Are really getting hard to get parts for. We've done our best to get most of those out of the field.

10 years is insane, but sadly we have a few that are pushing 15.

I try to stay away from "years" and go with copy count and of course, parts availability. the customer seems to understand that number better and are more open to replacing a machine when it needs it vs the old, "oh...isn't this supposed to last X number of years?".

if it's a school or government contract for a certain time frame, we end up being creative in keeping some machines still running!

Vulkor
05-24-2010, 09:47 PM
I try to stay away from "years" and go with copy count and of course, parts availability. the customer seems to understand that number better and are more open to replacing a machine when it needs it vs the old, "oh...isn't this supposed to last X number of years?".

if it's a school or government contract for a certain time frame, we end up being creative in keeping some machines still running!

Yeah lots of instances we bring loaner machines, But we don't tell customer their machine is too old and don't use a set date. Its basically till parts run out. I wish we would discontinue support when Parts Support is done that way we don't have customers mad when they are paying for maintenance and we can't get parts for their machine.

Tonerjockey.com
06-02-2010, 07:04 PM
In the U.S., the statute is that the manufacturer must provide replacement parts for 7 years after the product has been discontinued. Typically a new piece of gear is discontinued 3 years after it has been introduced. In some cases, manufacturers have continued producing parts. For example, Sharp introduced the 2022 series in the early 90's. Until recently, we were still able to get some parts, but that series was an exceptional run. The same is true for many HP printers. For the most part, I would say 10 years is the rule of thumb, just as we might say 70 years is how long a person can live. Time, environment, use, and the number of users all tend to reduce lifespan on a copier.
What we really want customers to know though is that the technology is moving at the speed of computer technology. That means that every 6 months to a year, the technology makes a significant leap in reducing cost, improving productivity, or simplifying connectivity. That means that if they are waiting ten years, they may be significantly behind the competition.

Oze
06-23-2010, 08:50 AM
Rule of thumb in these parts is 5-6 years.

KenB
06-24-2010, 03:07 AM
What we really want customers to know though is that the technology is moving at the speed of computer technology. That means that every 6 months to a year, the technology makes a significant leap in reducing cost, improving productivity, or simplifying connectivity. That means that if they are waiting ten years, they may be significantly behind the competition.

I agree! Customers need to realize that MFPs are computers, too.

Not only are parts an issue, as they always have been, but the software side must be considered as well.

The machines need to keep up with changing operating systems, email protocols, security constraints, and applications. As MFPs integrate deeper and deeper into the network, it's not just print drivers to contend with.

For instance, do you really think that a machine that came out in 2006 will play nicely with Windows 9, or Mac OSXI when they become reality? The manufacturers only go back so far when writing new software and firmware. It's crazy to think that they will continue to develop updates for antiquated machines.

Vulkor
06-24-2010, 02:19 PM
I agree! Customers need to realize that MFPs are computers, too.

For instance, do you really think that a machine that came out in 2006 will play nicely with Windows 9, or Mac OSXI when they become reality? The manufacturers only go back so far when writing new software and firmware. It's crazy to think that they will continue to develop updates for antiquated machines.

Ahh yes but unlike a computer they invest much more money in a MFP and are hard to ween off of it.

KenB
06-24-2010, 08:33 PM
Ahh yes but unlike a computer they invest much more money in a MFP and are hard to ween off of it.

Very true.

That being so, it's up to both service and sales to convince the customer that the MFP won't just "automagically" adapt to any changes that come along.

I suppose that if the customer will never upgrade his OS or any applications, an MFP would last for quite a long time... but I know of no one who could ever commit to that. (BTW... applications tend to cost much more than the hardware when you add them up.) Even if the customer were to never change his applications, the next PC he buys will come with Windows 7. I'm sure the same thing will hold true for future versions of Windows as well. Ditto for the Mac side of the world too.

I've seen tons of cases where the customer went out and spent a ton of money on the latest and greatest hardware and software, then it was our fault because our equipment either wouldn't work correctly without a chargeable upgrade, isn't fully functional, or just plain wouldn't work at all.

We become the bad guys for selling junk. That gets even further compliacted when the customer says. "Our salesman told us that ALL future updates for this model are included in our contract!". Grrrrrr :mad:

Sometimes you can tactfully try to explain the difference between an "update" and and "upgrade", but that doesn't always fly. (Updates are normally provided at no cost, while upgrades are normally chargeable.)

Believe it or not, a few weeks ago, I actually had a customer asked us BEFORE he upgraded! I was both shocked and impressed. He has a Fiery E-8100 and asked us if it was OK to upgrade his Macs to OSX 10.6. Turns out that we'll need to update the Fiery to version 1.11, but no worries. :D

KenB
06-24-2010, 09:02 PM
Talk about timing... I just found this on the 'Net:

5082

Vulkor
06-25-2010, 03:23 PM
yeah I've seen older. took me almost an hour to install C4040 drivers on an 166mhz with the Giant LEDs on the front of the case telling you its speed.

rar0411
08-23-2010, 10:05 PM
never heard of forward compatabile!!

jamesyboy
08-23-2010, 10:15 PM
we have a ongoing dead list
its all about part availability once japan stop making the parts is on the no more support list
a major component failure then is basically game over
we alawys fix if we can but advise the customer might be the last fix
seems to be 7 years tops these days but its getting shorter most serious users are generally on 3 year contracts these days allways feel a bit sorry for the small guy who bought a machine thinking it was forever but ha ho there you go disposable world and all that

Evan Fitz
08-30-2010, 09:00 AM
I don't know you,i saw that you answered a question and pasted a link to this,anyhow,i would love your help on an issue pertaining to a family matter,having a very hard time,i won't ignore you or your answer.

wagon
08-30-2010, 10:38 AM
Don't forget the old trusty LJ4, I love those things.

I've got an LJ4+ in my office and an LJ4 at home... cheap to run, reliable, etc. I keep a wreck for parts.

android790
09-25-2010, 02:08 PM
Life of a copier>>>
1. does it still do what you want it to do?
2. is the down time for repair ok? (old machines may take days,months,years to find parts)
3. is the cost to keep the machine better than replacement?

If you answer no to any of these, it is time to replace.

Lotec
10-22-2010, 04:43 PM
Here in Norway I think 90% of the machines are scrapped (or sold to a low cost country) after they are 5 years old.

It is the standard leasing period of a machine. Ricoh also says the machine is expected to work fine for 5 years and a certain number of copies.

When we scrap the machines (the sale people just want to sell new all the time) the copier/MFC have reached around 5-15% of what Ricoh says they are designed to last.

People/companies here tend to buy machines that are way to large for their use. I see many of the Ricoh 1060s, 2060, MP6500 etc are replaced after 300 000 - 1 000 000 copies. And color machines like 2238 and MPC2500 are done after 50 000 - 400 000 copies.
Companies tend to buy 1 large machine and never a small one for back up. So when it stops it is allways a rush.

I remember a company that bought a Ricoh copier that printet 105 pages a minute. They had all the options installed. They printed 6500 pages a year !!! And yes.. they are NOT in business any longer :-)

I worked a year in Spain and Greece, and they used smaller machines that had to work harder and for more years - but they all seemes to have a back up machine. If a company had a machine like a 1060... they used it 5-7 million copies. At least. And they had a small back up machine that also had many hundred thousand prints. Sometimes over a million.

I remember one acounting company that had a 1060 and a small Panasonic MFC as back up. They had a 2238 and a small gel sprinter 3050sfn? as a back up too. They had software that routed all black/white jobs over 10 pages to the 1060. The 2238 took all the large jobs on color too. The 1060 had 8,5 million prints when I left. The Panasonic had about a million. The 2238 had over 1,5 million color prints and a few hundre thousand b/w. The gel springer had about 250 000 prints when I left (and it almost never ever had a paper jam).
They had people that cleaned paper feed rollers in the paper banks and the ARDF. They where were carefull when they put the paper in the drawer too. And they had large print jobs timed to start at night.
I'm sure the 1060 is still up and running, just as the other machines (even though it is about 3 years ago now).
They expected the machines could break down, so they had a back up. The tech had time to do a good job, and all PM parts was changed (except the transfer belt and pressure roller that was changed every second or third service). The customer was carefull with the machines. They expected them to last 10-15 years. The company I worked for expected to serve them this long as well. And the price the customer paid was higher for each copy then on new machines - because it was a several year old deal that was continued once every year.
A lot of companies also had a lot of small Brother, HP, Ricohs, Lexmark and so on - and used them a lot. It would be better and cheaper for them to buy a larger machine, but they would not enter a leasing agreement. They wantet to buy the copier/printer cash and use it for as long as they could. I remember changing drums for a Brother once a week (the users didn't want to do this), and I changed the fuser and laser several times. These small machines reached a million pages at least. In Norway they are scrapped when they reach 10 - 50 000 pages because the machines are dirt cheap - service costs are high and drum units are expensive. A fuser/laser cost about 2/3 of a new machine..

I would have liked to run a copyshop, and see how many copies a small machine can handle. I'm sure it could last for MANY years.
One thing that is bad is now that I work in a high cost country - the parts are priced higher compared to other countries. So it is usually cheaper to scrap a machine that to fix it. Even a machine that is 1-2 year old (on smaller models).
The service cost is too high also (190 us $ an hour, of which I get about 32).

I was at a customer today with a MPC2500 (about 2 years old I think). It had made about 6000 color A4 prints. About 3-400 b/W and 14 A3 pages. The 14 A3 pages are prints I made to test the machine when it was new...
I print more pages on my ink jet printer then they do in two years on a machine that cost that much. I wonder what the cost for every page would be. When it is scrapped I guess the average price for a page would be 3 dollars a page?

Hemlock
10-25-2010, 06:09 PM
My last company did it right; they upped the cost of the maintenance contract every year (written into the contract ahead of time) and pegged the numbers to make it beneficial to the customer to swap out at the 4 year mark. Then we'd buy the copier back (or take it as a trade), clean it up and sell it to groups that may not be able to afford a new machine. And continue to make money off of the subsequent service agreement. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Everybody wins!

kingpd@businessprints.net
10-29-2010, 04:10 AM
Hi guys , i was just wondering about the proper life span of a copier , reason for this is because we get alot of techs asking questions about copiers that i have forgotten about and today i had a machine that was installed by our company in 1998 the machine was still in good nick but i told the customer it is unrepairable because i know if we had to repair it the dude will keep bringing it back so i reffered him to sales.Personally i think it should be no longer than 3 years and used machines should be scrapped and thrown away (recycled in other words).

There are definitely too many copiers out there...too much junk too.

kingpd@businessprints.net
10-29-2010, 04:49 AM
The actual lifetime is determined by the manufacturer in its design criteria and should be available from each. From that determination, I believe it is plus one year for spare parts availability, after that time it is what ever the manufacturer has left in stock. It is all calculated in the beginning as to expected units sold and spare parts mortality and etc, etc. Heck, one time Xerox wanted to sell me all there Xerox 2510 spare parts inventory and they had thousands of parts left 20 years after the introduction of the copier. My experience shows most manufacturers are pretty well stocked up to about 7 years after discontinue date. Your mileage may vary. If you want a specific timeline, ask your manufacturer for the "Lifetime of the product" as they determined in their design criteria.
In the US auto industry I know they follow a 10 years after model year, spare parts will be provided. Is it a law, a statutory requirement, I don't know and I don't know if there is a specific law for spare parts in the copier printer industry. There is also "Voluntary" and "Statutory" as key words in any requirement.
If anybody is a member of BTA, they can ask for a legal opinion. Please keep us informed if you do.

Also, Rudi, since I see you used the term " good nick" I figure you are outside the US and may very well follow a different set of standards.

Someone in the copier industry told me years ago that the 10 years parts applied to copiers but don't take this as a legal opinion. I think the concept is that if you buy something you should be able to fix it for so long.

Now my understanding is that Bentley-Rolls-Royce keeps the schematics for every car they've ever made and with enough dough you can get a custom one made and that parts are to be guaranteed for at least 100 years. There's a lot of collectors and enthusiasts out there.

kingpd@businessprints.net
10-29-2010, 04:58 AM
Ahh yes but unlike a computer they invest much more money in a MFP and are hard to ween off of it.

This is true. They are quite pricey toys...although sometimes we don't make shit on them. I'd be curious to know how much the manufacturers make on the sale of copiers to dealers.

kingpd@businessprints.net
10-29-2010, 05:00 AM
Talk about timing... I just found this on the 'Net:

5082

emachines...i think walmart sold them...boy is that false advertising.

kingpd@businessprints.net
10-29-2010, 05:09 AM
My last company did it right; they upped the cost of the maintenance contract every year (written into the contract ahead of time) and pegged the numbers to make it beneficial to the customer to swap out at the 4 year mark. Then we'd buy the copier back (or take it as a trade), clean it up and sell it to groups that may not be able to afford a new machine. And continue to make money off of the subsequent service agreement. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Everybody wins!

Is this on a cpc program? How much do you usually increase it each year?

XXX
11-17-2010, 01:00 AM
Eight years from the start of production.

If the manufacturer runs out of parts or supplies early, they can discontinue technical support at any time.

pjdbm
11-17-2010, 02:10 AM
ultimately the Technician will determine the life of the machine.

Stirton.M
11-17-2010, 07:17 AM
an older Konica Minolta machine like the C350, typical life is about 1 million. Many of our current machines, those of the Tuxedo line and newer are now rated to live as long as 5 million.

That is the typical measure of longevity on any given machine from my point of view. The span of time is subjective to how the machine is used.

Whenever asked this question, like most other analogies related to these machines, I ask the customer to compare the machine to their car. It will last forever if hardly used, but the more you use it, the more worn out it will get over time. Parts availability is irrelevant when it comes to the point that the machine is being serviced for something every other week or so and that service is not related to consumables. Most people will not keep a car for longer than 5-6 years, or 200K...at least, not in Calgary. I know I will not. The cost of maintaining that car is just too much. Granted, unlike the car, if a customer has a service agreement, the costs to maintain the machine pass to the service company. But I put it in perspective that if continual down time for repairs is what they want, the machine will last forever. But if productivity is the ultimate desire, then it should be periodically upgraded...I recommend when the lease agreement is set to expire...every 5 years or thereabout.

And of course, whenever you want to take advantage of new features and capabilities.

DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS
11-29-2010, 11:02 AM
The manufacturer itself determines the lifespan of a copier during the manufacture. A RELIABILITY & PERFORMANCE SPECIFICATIONS is prepared which establishes the TARGET VALUE for the machines. This is used as a guide in the production process. once machine is installed,other factors e.g working enviroment, care in operation, customer's maintenance policy & technicians competence also affects its working life.SINCE Most manufacturers stock parts for 5-7yrs,after product launch. we may reasonably predict this as the copier's lifespan.

Lotec
11-29-2010, 06:13 PM
Well.. still makes me wonder how they perform their tests.

I see a copier with for example a very good paper feed mechanism. When it is time to upgrade the machine, they abandon the paper feed design that is well proven in real life - and come up with another design that is a failure... it may be cheaper.. but is suck ass.

Another variation is the paper feed mechanism on many smaller copiers (I'm not talking about the smallest desktop models for home use).When they have a bigger model with a good paper feed, they just HAVE to make a cheaper design for the small one. It can not cost that much more. A clutch, a solenoid and 3 rollers..
They could basically have the same paper feed mechanism in all models. High volume production = lower price..

Why do they keep the charge roller system if it fails that often. Why not use a charge corona wire? It is not color production machines anyway. It is an office copier. I'm sure a corona wire with 300K lifetime would be preferabel. Insted of changing PCUs every 3-60K.
Yeah.. it will generate some ozone due to the high voltage. And ozone is not good for the customer, the tech or the plants in the room. When inhaled, ozone even reacts with compounds lining the lungs to form specific, cholesterol-derived metabolites that are thought to facilitate the build-up and pathogenesis of atherosclerotic plaques - a form of heart disease. (Atherosclerosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atherosclerosis)).
We have a few customers that focus a lot on ozone becauser it is bad for the skin, hair, and health in general. But 99.5% don't know anything about it.
But if they use a charge corona - they can just add a filter with every toner. Make it easy to change and the job will be done by the customer every time they change toner. New ozone filters are very good too - if they have the right size. See:

7319
A 15mm larger filter/ high cell count will remove almost 100% of the ozone.
On the other hand.. why do other manufacturers succeed with charge rollers..?


I would like to be a copier tester. I would within a few weeks find out how and what fails.
Hell, just give a test model to a busy copyshop. They will find the weak spot in the design in no time.
I worked a while in a copyshop with several machines. Because it generated a lot less noise - the operators chose to run most of the jobs on a small Ricoh AF650. Over a period they made between 300- 400 000 impressions a week on that poor little thing. The large Xerox and Ocè was collection dust for many weeks.
We had the Ricoh tech every friday performing a really good PM.
We filled up with paper at 06:00 and we had the last refill at 23:00 hours.
We were told the machine would not last long if we didn't start to utilise the other machines too. But it performed very well. We had only minor problems during the year I worked there. Under hard use/seriously long continuous jobs it experienced some kind of drum fatigue. But an hour with no use - and it was up and running again. And we managed to print about 4-4,5 million pages it it the first year.
I've always wanted to know how many pages that machine managed before it was replaced.

So what I'm trying to say is.. if they had a hard real world test on a machine.. they would see whats failing all the time. Then make it better. Test again.
There is no way in hell that the MPC machines are tested enough. The charge roller problem would not have been an issue. The rest of the machine is absolutely good enough.. but the charge roller problem aggravate the hell out of me.
I'm sick and tiered of changing 10 drums a day.... and probably every day for the rest of the winter..
And I don't even want to talk about Adonis... and newer models based on this one.

At the same time, I understand that they need to come up with new technology - to be the leaders in their field. Add some bling bling functions.. bells and whistles..and what not.
But the core technology behind the machine needs to work 100% before it enters the market.

On the new models that's replaceing the MPC2800/4000 series I see they're coming up with:

Improved paper feed solution from the paper trays. A feed belt insted of the pick up roller. OK.. fair enough.. but I am happy with the way it worked in the first place. I've noticed that the sep roller is worn down much quicker than the rest of the rollers though. I've read about techs that change only the sep roller every interval, and the rest every second. Is that common?

Improved fuser. Can handle thicker paper stock and should reduce the curling of paper in the fuser. We have no customers that run thicker paper then 160 g/m2 so that does not matter for us. But the curl prevention is something we've been waiting for. We see the MPC4000 have about twice as many jams around the fuser as the MPC2500.

Improved speed is always good for sales.. as long as the machines does not replace more high volume machines. But I've almost never experienced this here. It is quite the opposite. They have a MPC2800 and would have managed with a 200 dollar inkjet printer. Or at least a small gel jet.

Increased security features.. we have no customers that care.. at the moment.

Less energy consumption... we have no customers that care..

Envelope feeder. We'll probably sell some of those.

Single pass duplex doc feeder. That will be good (as long as it works good).

Color Weakness Management Mode. This has potential. I've never heard of any competitors that have this.

Improved drum. YES! Just hope it works as planned. Too bad the charge roller can not be a spare part - that we can use on the rest of the MPCs. I would have saved a lot of time, and the machines would run cheaper = more profit.
Can we not use black drum for color any longer..? That will be a real bummer.

Longer interval between maintnance. I will believe it when I see it. But I hope it's true.
AND I would have loved if they hired the designers/engineers from Dyson to see if they can make some sexy technical improvements.

Stirton.M
11-30-2010, 02:32 AM
Technology can change over time due to staff turnover at any given firm. Any number of improvements by one generation of designers may be considered by the next generation as inferior and the cycle will be reversed come the next generation.

There are some improvements that work, while others simply do not work. Feed mechanisms vary, though most are the same. Some have active separation, while others have friction separation, while some rely on airfeed.

I cannot comment on your hardware, but I can on Konica Minolta...and frankly, when it comes to maintenance, general maintenance I mean, most items have a long life and each new generation, the service intervals are much longer on the current lot of hardware, relative to the last generation of machines, and significantly higher than the intervals of the machines I first worked on some 14 years ago. Life span estimates are significantly higher as well. Many machines I worked on, their lives were measured at about a couple hundred thousand...now, they are in the several million range.

Same thing for EM clutches, feed tires and sep tires, torrington clutches.

On one series machine, the C452-C652, the black dev unit is rated for 1.1 Million before it needs to be replaced, the machine's life rated at roughly 6 million, a stark contrast to a C450, the image unit rated at 1 tenth of that, the entire machine itself has a life of 1 million. Feed and separation rollers on the C452 (300K) roughly 10 times the life of rollers found on the C450, which is about 30K. Where the C450 has several clutches, the C452 only has a couple, everything else driven directly by precision motors, which are pretty reliable over long periods of time.

On our production line machines, most clutches on the C6500 are 2 million or more.

Drums rated at 100K on these, the Press C8000 I am currently learning about this week is rated at 300K service intervals.

There are significant differences in KM hardware, relative to what was seen years ago when we first merged. We are even adopting air fed paper trays for the high production machines, seen in the 1200, and the Press C6000, C7000 and C8000 series machines. Though not new in the industry, it is new to the KM hardware lines, and I am told by a couple peers who service the 1200 machines, far superior to the friction fed schemes of previous generations.

The simple matter however, is that all of this is subject to the paper quality too. Shitty paper stock will chew up the rollers much sooner than that of high quality paper. Not always practical to see that high quality paper is used, though more often than not, the customer will use this in colour machines if they want good quality prints...assuming that is their desire. Not all really care about perfect quality, so long as the image looks normal.

In the end, it is subjective to the needs of the end user. Some will abuse the machine while others will take good care of it. Technician service care is pretty important too. Attention to detail when servicing the machine will ensure it will last to the rated life, and sometimes beyond.

tcypy1961
11-30-2010, 05:01 AM
until I can't fix it. used copiers are my bread and butter. I started in the Bus. in 1984 and still work on some copiers that were around before then.

kingpd@businessprints.net
11-30-2010, 06:13 AM
Is the konica minolta 1200 KM's own design? It looks like it. I thought at one point KM was rebranding Oce but maybe it's the other way around. I see though that KM has the Kodak digimaster series on it's site. How is that situation set up? Heidelberg and Canon (IR110,125,150, etc) were actually rebranded as their own but it appears that KM is keeping the Kodak name on them?

Stirton.M
11-30-2010, 11:17 PM
Is the konica minolta 1200 KM's own design? It looks like it. I thought at one point KM was rebranding Oce but maybe it's the other way around. I see though that KM has the Kodak digimaster series on it's site. How is that situation set up? Heidelberg and Canon (IR110,125,150, etc) were actually rebranded as their own but it appears that KM is keeping the Kodak name on them?

There was a little talk about this while I was on course today...OCE most certainly has been an ongoing influence for many of the current model lines. In Canada, Heidelberg and Kodak are not a part of our structure, though I understand they have influence in the US. How and to what extent, I cannot say. One of the other guys may know details. Canon to my knowledge, is still Canon...

Much of the 1200 I am told has OCE design concepts, and one of the guys on my course has admitted there are many OCE influences found on the Press C8000.

However, that said, office machines will be supplied to OCE from KM, while production machines like the 1200 and Press C8000, KM designed, will be shared with OCE and vice versa. As I stated, minor things are of influence to the hardware design from OCE...feed, fusing, to name a few....I am unaware of any OCE hardware beyond the small things. I cannot say for sure.

Océ and Konica Minolta reviewed their strategic alliance (http://global.oce.com/news/press-releases/2010/oce-and-konica-minolta-reviewed-their-strategic-alliance.aspx)

That gives a little detail....mentions Canon, but not if they are combined with us....

More detail here...

Océ details information regarding strategic alliance with Konica Minolta (http://global.oce.com/news/press-releases/2008/oce-details-information-regarding-strategic-alliance-with-konica-minolta.aspx)

and of course, more can be found through google.

KEITH.MAX
12-01-2010, 11:33 AM
Eight years from the start of production.

Lotec
12-01-2010, 11:53 AM
I think it has to do a lot with the customer and the environment it is in.
If they know how to handle the machine, how to store paper and choose an OK paper type there is a good chance of a long lifetime.
If the model is good it will last even longer. With good I mean a machine that works well technically - and that we and the customer can have a reasonable profit from.

We still have 10 year old machines out, and the customer is really happy with them. We're happy since we're there only to perform PMs, and we can make a profit from the machine.


If you have a machine that is in an environment it is not made for, with a lot of unskilled users that treat the machine poorly - the machine will just make it through 3 years. Max.

We've had a few machines where we've told the customer we can no longer service the machine because of the environment and how it's been used. If we have to service the machine once a week .. every week for a year we loose money big time.

We had a machine placed in a dusty mill, and a machine next to a large welding station. We told them it WILL not work but they didn't care.

DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS
12-01-2010, 11:54 AM
The Life span of a copier
When a customer asks you about the “lifespan of a machine” he actually wants to know how “dependable” or “trustworthy” it is i.e. what is its actual RELIABILITY. Reliability Engineering is a discipline in itself we can not exhaust all on this forum. But it is concerned with PROBABILITY of satisfactory operation without failure for a definite period of time. It is a PREDICTION of likely success of operation. Electronic equipment are made up of several components and it is by measuring small samples of the various items, that the manufacturer gain information on the FAILURE RATES and then use these figures to predict the overall reliability/lifespan of the machine.

For example the reliability of a machine may be quoted as 93% for a 10,000hr (5 years) operation under a well defined operating conditions e.g temperature and humidity.This means that the probability of satisfactory operation without failure is 93% during 10,000hr operation. For it is impossible to state that the machine was certain to operate correctly for that period of time.
The various stages in the life cycle of a copier can be separated into four parts.


Design and development:



Choice of components.
Stress and failure analysis.
Mechanical layout.
Prototype testing

The purchasing department must ensure that the required components are ordered from a reputable source,the goods thoroughly inspected and properly stored.


Manufacture/production:



Skill and involvement of work force as well as training schemes.
Tools and equipment and the working environment.
Inspection and test methods used will also affect the life span of the final equipment.Usually automatic test equipment not subjected to human error are used to check precision parts like printed circuit boards(PCB s).A soak test when the complete equipment is operated for a specified period at elevated temperature / temperature cycling will show up components that are weak.



Packing, storage and transport:



Corrosion, storage, temperature, humidity levels, mechanical shocks and vibration all affect the reliability of the equipment.



Working life



Operating environment.
Care in operation.
Maintenance policy.
Skills, level of training and competence of the maintenance technicians all play a part in the life span of a machine.

NOTE: The importance of the FEEDBACK LOOP in the chain between production and design department and the working life of the equipment and design department in the factory.The latter is provided through technical reports compiled and sent back to the factory by technicians like you and me who are in direct contact with the performance of the copier every day in the field.Our data is used by the design engineers to perfect design.
Thank you.

Lotec
12-01-2010, 09:53 PM
Whow!
I'll give that A+ :)
That just have to be the end of this thread. All factors included.
.. and somehow that answer just made me happy. :D
I'll keep that answer in case a customer asks about the lifetime and reliability.

kingpd@businessprints.net
12-01-2010, 10:51 PM
I think it has to do a lot with the customer and the environment it is in.
If they know how to handle the machine, how to store paper and choose an OK paper type there is a good chance of a long lifetime.
If the model is good it will last even longer. With good I mean a machine that works well technically - and that we and the customer can have a reasonable profit from.

We still have 10 year old machines out, and the customer is really happy with them. We're happy since we're there only to perform PMs, and we can make a profit from the machine.


If you have a machine that is in an environment it is not made for, with a lot of unskilled users that treat the machine poorly - the machine will just make it through 3 years. Max.

We've had a few machines where we've told the customer we can no longer service the machine because of the environment and how it's been used. If we have to service the machine once a week .. every week for a year we loose money big time.

We had a machine placed in a dusty mill, and a machine next to a large welding station. We told them it WILL not work but they didn't care.

Good points. Schools and government offices are some of the worst. Or any place with dozen of users. Most don't go to the training and most could care less about the machine and treating it decently.

I'm telling you, we need to have abuse, and "idiot" clauses in the contracts. Some of the travesties I've seen...horrible.

There should be a copier abuse hotline.

Stirton.M
12-01-2010, 10:54 PM
I think it has to do a lot with the customer and the environment it is in.
If they know how to handle the machine, how to store paper and choose an OK paper type there is a good chance of a long lifetime.
If the model is good it will last even longer. With good I mean a machine that works well technically - and that we and the customer can have a reasonable profit from.

We still have 10 year old machines out, and the customer is really happy with them. We're happy since we're there only to perform PMs, and we can make a profit from the machine.


If you have a machine that is in an environment it is not made for, with a lot of unskilled users that treat the machine poorly - the machine will just make it through 3 years. Max.

We've had a few machines where we've told the customer we can no longer service the machine because of the environment and how it's been used. If we have to service the machine once a week .. every week for a year we loose money big time.

We had a machine placed in a dusty mill, and a machine next to a large welding station. We told them it WILL not work but they didn't care.

Most of the KM hardware I work with is built to last.

We have found that the factors that lead to a machine being abused by an end user is if maintenance on it is not kept up, it increases the frustration factor regarding jamming, quality issues, failures....this can be exacerbated if the machine looks dirty.

To wit, I have machines out there that are older than 10 years because we have an active policy to clean the machine and maintain its components. Any and all worn parts are replaced in a timely manner, jam and service code counters are reviewed during the visit, along with a conversation with any users as to any problems and concerns. The attitude is impressed on all of us at my shop, they pay our paycheck, so it is in our best interest to keep them happy. The rest of the customer satisfaction is on the machine itself, and how well the customer knows its features, and lastly, the quality of the machine to begin with. With the exception of the C350, ALL the machines I service from that generation to current, some 10+ years and some, are still viable machines. Even the C450s are pushing 2 million in a few cases and still running reliably, a testament to our maintenance regime.

The only reason, in my opinion, to retire a machine is if it no longer meets the needs of the customer. That can be something as simple as volume (PPM and/or monthly cycle), or going from monochrome to colour to technology changes such as new features and abilities or to match their computer upgrade path. No drivers available for current Mac or Windows or even Linux on a particular model.

If the machine is not service maintained, it will end a miserable short life. This is true of anything. Cars are an excellent example of this. I owned a 92 Olds Cutlass right from new to just over a year ago. I kept it clean and well maintained. It received regular service and I took care of it. Original engine and transmission. I went through 3 batteries, two sets of CV joints and 3 brake rebuilds and 1 exhaust system, over and above the other common things like brake pads and shoes, spark plugs, oil changes, coolant changes, wipers, windshield, lights, tires and so on, the car had half a million on it when I retired it. Even the body was in imaculate condition. Only a couple rust spots, but even those were minor...a couple inches at most on the bottom rear panels behind the rear wheels, metal still intact. Some pitting from road dirt on the hood and front grill. It was in such good shape, the dealer I traded it in for gave me $1000 for it...I was originally going to give it over to the kidney foundation, the dealer sold it to someone else for $2000.

Bottom line is to take care of the product, it will last a long time, and reliably.

kingpd@businessprints.net
12-01-2010, 11:05 PM
Really good post. They should quit caring about how cool their plastic pieces of crap look and bring back some of the tanks that ran and ran and just improve upon them.

b003ace
01-04-2011, 05:08 PM
http://www.copytechnet.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Lotec http://www.copytechnet.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.copytechnet.com/forums/copier-technical-discussion/34114-lifetime-copier-post183324.html#post183324)
I think it has to do a lot with the customer and the environment it is in.
If they know how to handle the machine, how to store paper and choose an OK paper type there is a good chance of a long lifetime.
If the model is good it will last even longer. With good I mean a machine that works well technically - and that we and the customer can have a reasonable profit from.

We still have 10 year old machines out, and the customer is really happy with them. We're happy since we're there only to perform PMs, and we can make a profit from the machine.


If you have a machine that is in an environment it is not made for, with a lot of unskilled users that treat the machine poorly - the machine will just make it through 3 years. Max.

We've had a few machines where we've told the customer we can no longer service the machine because of the environment and how it's been used. If we have to service the machine once a week .. every week for a year we loose money big time.

We had a machine placed in a dusty mill, and a machine next to a large welding station. We told them it WILL not work but they didn't care.



Good points. Schools and government offices are some of the worst. Or any place with dozen of users. Most don't go to the training and most could care less about the machine and treating it decently.

I'm telling you, we need to have abuse, and "idiot" clauses in the contracts. Some of the travesties I've seen...horrible.

There should be a copier abuse hotline.


Don't count on those "idiot" clauses. We had abuse and neglect exemptions in our contracts, but management NEVER enforced them. In fact, management would make us technicians look like fools. We would be required to warn the customer after the first repair for negligence or abuse, that the next time would be chargeable. We would go out again for the same problem, and management would say "Warn them that it won't be covered". I had one customer broke the rear fences in the paper trays FIFTEEN TIMES. I finally stopped "warning" them, because management would never charge them for it. Yet that same management would charge other customers full retail for a first time scratched drum. I got so that on a first time scratch, I would report it as a cleaning scratch and let the customer know that it wouldn't be covered if it happened again. At least they never made me the fool on drums that way.

b003ace
01-04-2011, 05:23 PM
Most of the KM hardware I work with is built to last.

We have found that the factors that lead to a machine being abused by an end user is if maintenance on it is not kept up, it increases the frustration factor regarding jamming, quality issues, failures....this can be exacerbated if the machine looks dirty.

To wit, I have machines out there that are older than 10 years because we have an active policy to clean the machine and maintain its components. Any and all worn parts are replaced in a timely manner, jam and service code counters are reviewed during the visit, along with a conversation with any users as to any problems and concerns. The attitude is impressed on all of us at my shop, they pay our paycheck, so it is in our best interest to keep them happy. The rest of the customer satisfaction is on the machine itself, and how well the customer knows its features, and lastly, the quality of the machine to begin with. With the exception of the C350, ALL the machines I service from that generation to current, some 10+ years and some, are still viable machines. Even the C450s are pushing 2 million in a few cases and still running reliably, a testament to our maintenance regime.

The only reason, in my opinion, to retire a machine is if it no longer meets the needs of the customer. That can be something as simple as volume (PPM and/or monthly cycle), or going from monochrome to colour to technology changes such as new features and abilities or to match their computer upgrade path. No drivers available for current Mac or Windows or even Linux on a particular model.

If the machine is not service maintained, it will end a miserable short life. This is true of anything. Cars are an excellent example of this. I owned a 92 Olds Cutlass right from new to just over a year ago. I kept it clean and well maintained. It received regular service and I took care of it. Original engine and transmission. I went through 3 batteries, two sets of CV joints and 3 brake rebuilds and 1 exhaust system, over and above the other common things like brake pads and shoes, spark plugs, oil changes, coolant changes, wipers, windshield, lights, tires and so on, the car had half a million on it when I retired it. Even the body was in imaculate condition. Only a couple rust spots, but even those were minor...a couple inches at most on the bottom rear panels behind the rear wheels, metal still intact. Some pitting from road dirt on the hood and front grill. It was in such good shape, the dealer I traded it in for gave me $1000 for it...I was originally going to give it over to the kidney foundation, the dealer sold it to someone else for $2000.

Bottom line is to take care of the product, it will last a long time, and reliably.

I couldn't agree with this more. The only thing I would add to this is that it certainly seems the older machines are better built and last longer. Much like many of the older cars. Sure, the new ones call for less maintenance, and many of the "wear" items have been vastly improved, but it seems like every new model introduces all sorts of new problems without fixing the problems from the previous generation.

For mepersonally, the lifetime of any product, is how long can I maintain and repair it for less annually than its annualized replacement cost. If a new machine will cost me $10,000 over three years, and the one I have will only cost me $5000 with the same performance, I'm going to keep the old one. The other test I use is if a single repair will come to more than half the LKQ replacement cost.

For some though, this does not factor in at all. I had one client with a bunch of A4 desktop multifunction machines. They would routinely spend more than replacement cost on repairs, because "corporate" had budgeted X dollars for "repairs and maintenance" of the "physical plant", but NOTHING for "purchasing" new.

DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS
01-04-2011, 06:32 PM
Dear b003ace, your management can NEVER ever enforce that "abuse and neglect clause" in the service agreement for purely the simple reason that they look at the customers from a completely different and opposite view from yours. they(customers) are the very reasons you people are in business, hence the "go-slow" attitude by your employer. In fact don't expect them to do anything about it.
This is an ADDENDUM to earlier articles i posted on this thread. The one thing customer require from any equipment or system is "maximum up" time. A system may posses excellent RELIABILITY,i.e. have a low chance of failure during operation, but if and when a failure occur, the repair time (or "down time") must be short. No customer wishes to wait for weeks for the repair to be carried out and in some cases even a few hours can be costly.The availability of the machine is a function of the mean time taken to repair any fault and includes the time taken to diagnose, locate and then repair the fault.

Hemlock
01-04-2011, 06:58 PM
Is the konica minolta 1200 KM's own design? It looks like it. I thought at one point KM was rebranding Oce but maybe it's the other way around. I see though that KM has the Kodak digimaster series on it's site. How is that situation set up? Heidelberg and Canon (IR110,125,150, etc) were actually rebranded as their own but it appears that KM is keeping the Kodak name on them?

The 1200 is pure Konica, the inside of the process unit hearkens back to one of its earlier 70 cpm machines from the turn of the century (millenium?). The KM BizHub Pro 2500C was the Oce' 6250, rebadged. As Oce' couldn't get Venlo to produce a color box, they rebranded KM's BizHub C-6501 with the meatball and called it a CS-650.

Of course, this all ended this time last year thanks to the Canon buyout.

DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS
01-04-2011, 07:00 PM
The mean time taken to repair ( MTTR) must be as short as possible in order to keep AVAILABILITY high. Given that the necessary test gears and spares are available, much depends upon the skill of the service engineer in effecting a rapid return to operation. This is why training in fault diagnosis is very important. As I stated in earlier articles, the LIFESPAN of the machine (copier) is determined ,among other things by ,the manufacturer. QUALITY is another term used by the manufacturer, and can be defined as " The ability of an item/system to meet its specification. No statement of time included here. So RELIABILITY is really an extension of QUALITY in TIME.
PERFORMANCE SPECIFICATIONS ( a well defined product with clear parameters), TEST SPECIFICATIONS-a document used within manufacturing plant details tests, with limits of measured values, that must be made on all production models. LIMITS & STANDARD SPECIFICATIONS issued by various bodies, national or international, all are used to GUIDE manufacturers and users of the equipment & processes. THANKS.

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