KMBH C6500 Registration off front to back on 12X18 100# gloss paper

[Desert Rat]

http://www.techsconnected.com/forum/images/smiles/banghead.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:emoticon(':banghead'))
I have seen this on the C500 and scrubbing the paper path rollers took care of it.
Not so on this model.
I started with the restart timing adjustment, checked the FD & CD mag adjust. The
FD mag adjust measured ok. I noticed .5mm skew while doing the CD mag and
went to the loop adjust to correct. No good. I adjusted from -30 to -20 to -10.
Then to -60 just to see movement. Nothing moved.
The customers copy shows about a 3mm error front to back of the machine and left
to right.

I could use some help and guidence on this model.
Am I on the right track? Or should I start with 11X17 inch paper
for these adjustments?

Thanks

DR

[minimerlin]

I assume that you have a skew on the paper? There is a chance that the pre transfer transport guide is bent, it is made of soft metal and is easily bent causing the transport rollers not to meet correctly and hence induce a skew!

[Desert Rat]

Minimerlin,
Thank you for your suggestion. I looked that up in the parts manual and on page 44 it shows
the secondary transfer section. Item 15 is the transfer guide and item 11 is the upper guide
plate assy. Is this what you are referring to?
I know on the C500 the entrance guide plate on the right under the by pass feed rollers will get
bent up a little and cause a similar problem.
Does it just need to be pushed down? Is it that to easy?

Thanks again

DR

[minimerlin]

Hi DR!
Not sure which manual you are looking at, just dug out my works laptop and my CF5501/6501 Parts manual shows the guide as Page 83, item 13 as part of the duplex unit. The tech manual (Theory of operaton) has a better picture on page 78.(16.1) The left hand picture is of the plate, the two white rollers can get lifted fronm the lower roller if the plate is bent, I have had skews result from this. Sorry cannot seem to cut and paste as I am on two different laptops..online on my own and looking at works for info! Hope it is of help..

[Desert Rat]

Minimerlin,
I was looking in the parts manual for the C6500. I will have a look in the theory guide to see
if I can find a better picture.

Thanks I will let you know how I fair tomorrow. That will be my second visit for this problem.

Thanks

DR

[bigdcopy]

Is it tray 4, 5 or tray 1, 2, 3? Do the adjustments with 11x17 not 12x18 you will fight it. If it is tray 4 and 5 there is an inclanation sensor (centering sensor) just prior to the exit roller of the paper feed unit clean it (you can remove one screw on the plastic cover and lift it up far enough to remove the sensor to clean it) it is the same type of sensor that is on the 1050's for auto centering. If you are trying to center tray 4 and 5 turn off auto center in the DSW manually center the tray then turn auto center back on. Trays 1, 2, 3 do not have an auto center sensor. If it is the lead to trail that is shifting remove the 2nd feed assy and clean the rollers and plates.

[Desert Rat]

http://www.techsconnected.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif (javascript:emoticon(':)')) Bigdcopy,
Thanks for that post. She does not have trays 4 & 5 yet and is running mostly from trays 1 & 3.
The skew and the shift is fairly consistant it does not seem to jump around.
It puts the image in the same spot for each copy, the cut lines don't line up on the full bleed
for a 2 sided print. It is off by about 3mm up & dn & left & right.
The second feed assembly? Would that be for the vertical transport? So far I have only
been running out of the top tray. I have a few sheets of lighter weight 11X17 gloss stock.
Would that be good for testing? Otherwise I will have to stop and get paper.

Thanks

DR

[bigdcopy]

the 2nd feed assy has a skew adjustment on it. Any 11x17 will work as long as it is not card stock the 2nd feed assy is the unit just before the transfer roller which is just before the fuser. I am on the road all day so can only answer at night.

[Desert Rat]

Bigdcopy,
I am on the road all day to if lucky. I may not get to see this machine for a day or two. The customer
has to get a job out and is trying to deal with the registration as she cuts the job.
Meanwhile I will look closer through the books I have.

Thanks for the tips


DR

[copiersales]

[QUOTE=Desert Rat;214399]Bigdcopy,
I am on the road all day to if lucky. I may not get to see this machine for a day or two. The customer
has to get a job out and is trying to deal with the registration as she cuts the job.
Meanwhile I will look closer through the books I have.

Thanks for the tips

Did the suggestion work for he front ot back registration?

[copiersales]

Did the suggestion work? Is the skewing a known problem with the KM box, or is it a function of poor service?

[Desert Rat]

Copiersales,
Yes it did seem to help, I am not real familar with this product and as an indy I have to
train myself on all the equipment I work on. So if I have trouble it is usually due to
not enough experience on a particular model, not poor service.

DR

[copiersales]

My techs tell me its not unusual to have a skewing variance of 2mm and a front to back variance of 2mm on the C6500 during a printing run. Having sold digital copiers since 1990, I'm starting to realize these are not mechanical analog presses, they are digital presses. Which means you are working with electricity and circuit boards. My talk track to the customer will change in the front to back registration explanation, because its not an offset press. Also, they are settings which are user oriented and can be easily applied by the customer. I've learned they are some tech that can fix machines, but not customers and then they are tech who can fix customers but not machines. In this new digital press world, techs must be able to do both.

[Ianizer]

My techs tell me its not unusual to have a skewing variance of 2mm and a front to back variance of 2mm on the C6500 during a printing run. Having sold digital copiers since 1990, I'm starting to realize these are not mechanical analog presses, they are digital presses.

Desert Rat, I hope that perhaps it is not Copiersales who is suffering from poor service practices!
Forgive me, but reliance on K-M's tollerance of 2mm for skew may be a bit of a cop-out.
We have been able to achieve fairly reasonable registration with this box. And having serviced copiers since well before 1990, I beg to differ that these are digital presses...



http://www.techsconnected.com/forum/images/smiles/banghead.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:emoticon(':banghead'))
I have seen this on the C500 and scrubbing the paper path rollers took care of it.
Not so on this model.
I started with the restart timing adjustment, checked the FD & CD mag adjust. The
FD mag adjust measured ok. I noticed .5mm skew while doing the CD mag and
went to the loop adjust to correct. No good. I adjusted from -30 to -20 to -10.
Then to -60 just to see movement. Nothing moved.
The customers copy shows about a 3mm error front to back of the machine and left
to right.

I could use some help and guidence on this model.
Am I on the right track? Or should I start with 11X17 inch paper
for these adjustments?

Thanks

DR

DR,
Am I understanding that skew is your primary issue, not registration?
Nearly spot on crop mark reg, for cutting, should be achievable through CWS...

PS65 Centering Sensor gave me all manner of fits awhile back with a similar issue.
You may be able to disable it altogether (but that may be just the PFU skew sensor and you said you don't have that... checking it out now).

Maybe check and clean that sensor, or replace it. You'll have to drop the ADU... bring your creeper.

Search "PS65" in your parts catalog to see just where it is.

Btw, two questions:
Have you removed the registration assy and cleaned that big Middle Roller underneath yet?
What do you mean by 100#? Bond? Index? What? (Got a gm²?)

-I

[copiersales]

Desert Rat, I hope that perhaps it is not Copiersales who is suffering from poor service practices!
Forgive me, but reliance on K-M's tollerance of 2mm for skew may be a bit of a cop-out.
We have been able to achieve fairly reasonable registration with this box. And having serviced copiers since well before 1990, I beg to differ that these are digital presses...




DR,
Am I understanding that skew is your primary issue, not registration?
Nearly spot on crop mark reg, for cutting, should be achievable through CWS...

PS65 Centering Sensor gave me all manner of fits awhile back with a similar issue.
You may be able to disable it altogether (but that may be just the PFU skew sensor and you said you don't have that... checking it out now).

Maybe check and clean that sensor, or replace it. You'll have to drop the ADU... bring your creeper.

Search "PS65" in your parts catalog to see just where it is.

Btw, two questions:
Have you removed the registration assy and cleaned that big Middle Roller underneath yet?
What do you mean by 100#? Bond? Index? What? (Got a gm²?)

-II, are you saying front to back registration is achievable on the C6500 and can be maintained throughout the run on 150gsm stock? If this is true, I'm going to start a fire.

[Ianizer]

I, are you saying front to back registration is achievable on the C6500 and can be maintained throughout the run on 150gsm stock? If this is true, I'm going to start a fire.

:confused: Is this a trick question?
If it couldn't, I'd be barbequed.

Of course... you have to actually do a PM once in awhile.

Okay wait...

That was uncalled for.

Sir, I have a full-on printshop C6500 w/ PF-601, RU-504, SD-501 & FS-503... A typical light run might be, say, 3K clicks 12x18 12pt. C1S single sided, or 10pt. (roughly around 256gsm, depending on brand, location, humidity, blah, blah, blah) C2S double sided... (He was running 12pt. C2S duplexed till I put the nix on that... asked about 14pt. once and we had a good laugh).

It's all like a bazillion-up, crop-marked and carried over to the guillotine. Believe me, he calls me when there's a 1mm skew lead-to-trail.

Am I understanding the query correctly?:confused:
150gsm is like... résumé paper.

Sure, you might start to see slight registration drift on an extended run, but 2mm, 4mm overall? That's huge! My customers would not stand for that.

BTW, I don't recommend starting any fires. It's irresponsible and illegal and the authorities generally frown on that sort of thing.

Please understand this. If you are in sales and adopt this talk track with customers you will incur the ire of your service techs and possibly the wrath of your service manager, not to mention doing your customers a disservice. K-M applies those tellerances for a reason.

My post is directed at techs with a genuine skew/registration problem. To say a 4mm shift is acceptable on basic stock... well, I just don't know if I buy it.

Btw, the customer I mentioned? I put the onus on him to adjust registration. It's a production color machine. It's a print shop. He needs to know how to use the image-shift in CWS.

-I

[Desert Rat]

Ianizer,
You are right the customer in a full on print shop environment needs to be able to do all of the
adjustments required of the operator.
And that is what this customer did. They figured it out. I had provided all the operator books
and they looked it up and figured it out.
Also, this whole sale was jinxed from the start. I did not have the opportunity to asemble
all the pieces in a shop for testing. I got the main copier/printer and the saddle stitch finisher.
Later came the booklet maker, the folder and the large two tray paper feed.
We got the sale because we could deliver sooner and for less. A rush job.
When I got it all assembled the icons for the booklet maker were grayed out and could not
be selected.
The tech from the dealer we got the machine from came out twice, he changed boards in the
sd unit and in the printer. No good. We upgraded all the firmware for all the units. I double
check the installation twice.
Meanwhile the customer had a service contract from a different vendor put on the machine
we just sold.
They seemed unusally quite considering the one main piece they wanted to use was not working.
We suspect the other company knew what to do to make it work and told the customer. Who
just pretended for a few months that it was not working, when along it was. Now she has to
finish paying for all the units.
So, I'm thinking I may not get a chance to see this one through to a conclution.
I am thinking that even tho this accessory can be installed on the BH105, the install instructions
say it can also be installed on the BH C6500.
I have another customer with one of these, but without the folder and booklet maker.
So I'm sure I will have another question or two before long.

Thanks for your help,

DR

[Ianizer]

...A rush job...

Aren't they all...

I feel your pain. The above system I mentioned was placed in one location, then the customer decided they wanted to move it...

Move it? Uh...
That was fun.

BTW, if you look at the peripherals I mentioned, that was sold as an unauthorized configuration not supported by the driver. The customer has had to manually install accessories based on what they wanted to do... We finally got an updated driver that works now.

It's a good box, IMO, but needs to run. I'm scratching my head over the whole registration/skew thing; it should be a solvable issue.
Keep us posted.

-I

[Desert Rat]

I,
This other customer has a C6500 with the large two drawer paper feeder
and the saddle sitich finisher.
I have only taken two calls both were the toner recovery augar was binding.
The first time it was just chucks the last time the toner melted right at the end
before it drops into the toner bottle. I chisled it out and ordered the little seal
at the end. It looked like it's rounding out. It still works fine, but if this should
return I can replace the seal. It was cheap enough.

Thanks for you input, I'm sure we will talk again

DR

[Ianizer]

I,
This other customer has a C6500 with the large two drawer paper feeder
and the saddle sitich finisher.
I have only taken two calls both were the toner recovery augar was binding.
The first time it was just chucks the last time the toner melted right at the end
before it drops into the toner bottle. I chisled it out and ordered the little seal
at the end. It looked like it's rounding out. It still works fine, but if this should
return I can replace the seal. It was cheap enough.

Thanks for you input, I'm sure we will talk again

DR

Look forward to it.

DR, solidifying/clumping toner in the waste system screams of an airflow issue.
At least a very high humidity area. What-- are you in Florida?
Please don't scrimp on filters. (We used to delete the rear box dust filters on 8050/C500, but just keep them cleaned/replaced on the 6500.)

Are you familiar with reaching the right-side toner filter? It's a filter box just beside, and to the copier-rear side of the (with PFU, now unuseable) bypass tray...
You may wish to clean and rotate the paper filter battery to gain a little extra life, but give them attention you must.

-I

[Desert Rat]

I,
I am familar with that filter. I will mention it to the customer. I will look through the book for
the rest filters and let the customer know we need to change them.

Thanks

DR