konica 222 feed problems

[DOE]

we got a customer a used konica 222. worked fine for a week and then started having paper feed trouble in top drawer. would only pick up paper but not advance it. i cleaned feed tires and it worked for a few days and started again. told custoner i would order feed tires and to put paper in 2nd drawer whidh i had also cleaned. worked for a few hours and then same problem. i find it hard to believe that both drawers need new feed tires, could this be another problem.

[DOE]

we got a customer a used konica 222. worked fine for a week and then started having paper feed trouble in top drawer. would only pick up paper but not advance it. i cleaned feed tires and it worked for a few days and started again. told custoner i would order feed tires and to put paper in 2nd drawer whidh i had also cleaned. worked for a few hours and then same problem. i find it hard to believe that both drawers need new feed tires, could this be another problem.
customer is very difficult to work with and says we have one chance to fix it or they want to return it so i am just trying to cover all the possibilities. just find it hard to believe that the feed tires are failing in both drawers. i know on the old 7033 that the door switch would cause jamming or other problems is there anything in this machine that could be causing both drawers to jam. paper doesnt make it out of drawer.

[blackcat4866]

Ah! An opportunity to step up on my soapbox!

You may have slipping one-way bearings in the feed units. Quite often, these one-way bearings are not treated correctly.

You'll want to soak out the one-way bearing (aka Torrington) in alcohol, and run a Q-tip around the opening. When it's dried a little add a single drop of light oil (like Triflow) to the bearing.

Check the shaft for wear. It's OK if it's smooth or shiney, but not OK if it has worn down in size/diameter. If the plating has peeled off you'll need to replace the shaft. It is common practice (and completely wrong) to score up the shaft with steel wool or green scrubbie. This action damages the shaft, forcing you to replace it. The one-way bearing needs the maximum surface contact with the shaft, and scoring up reduces the surface contact, and reduces the shaft size.

Some techs replace these one-way bearings every other tire change, or even every time. =^..^=

<<blackcat steps down off his soapbox>>

[Brett GS]

Ah! An opportunity to step up on my soapbox!

You may have slipping one-way bearings in the feed units. Quite often, these one-way bearings are not treated correctly.

You'll want to soak out the one-way bearing (aka Torrington) in alcohol, and run a Q-tip around the opening. When it's dried a little add a single drop of light oil (like Triflow) to the bearing.

Check the shaft for wear. It's OK if it's smooth or shiney, but not OK if it has worn down in size/diameter. If the plating has peeled off you'll need to replace the shaft. It is common practice (and completely wrong) to score up the shaft with steel wool or green scrubbie. This action damages the shaft, forcing you to replace it. The one-way bearing needs the maximum surface contact with the shaft, and scoring up reduces the surface contact, and reduces the shaft size.

Some techs replace these one-way bearings every other tire change, or even every time. =^..^=

<<blackcat steps down off his soapbox>>
Why would you put oil in the oneway isnt that defeating the point of it being a oneway? Im not trying to start a argument but i find myself going time and time again to call backs from other techs because they sprayed the oneways or clutches with oil.

[blackcat4866]

They absolutely must be oiled. I have some information somewhere about Torringtons:
http://www.ntnamericas.com/en/website/documents/brochures-and-literature/catalogs/needle_roller_bearings_2300-vii_lowres.pdf
See page B257 regarding lubrication. I don't claim to understand all (or much) of the engineering data, but I can be certain the the shaft must not be worn down, scored or damaged, and the bearing must be lubricated.

Do not feel like you have to be silent. That is what the forums are for: airing of opinions. Sometimes we agree. Sometimes we don't. No harm, no foul. =^..^=

[subaro]

Why would you put oil in the oneway isnt that defeating the point of it being a oneway? Im not trying to start a argument but i find myself going time and time again to call backs from other techs because they sprayed the oneways or clutches with oil.
Blackcat is absolutely right. The one way bearings are designed with a cavity in which the bearings retract[spring ] when they are no engaged or in the griping position. These cavity get dirt and stuff in there that prevents them to retract and roll smoothly. when the bearings are in the grip position, oil cannot make them slip as to the close proximity of all the bearings grippin on the shaft. Also, he is right about the shaft where the bearings turn must not be sanded or green pad, but just clean with solvent and alcohol. Only a drop or two of oil should be applied .Do not saturate the bearing with oil.

electronic Clutches shoud never be oiled , but using alcohol to check if a clutch is sticking is a tool techs use. Spring loaded clutch shoud be greased on the boss and spring.

to understand why, go to US patent website and see how they are designed and the science of their mechanics.

Like you, i could not understand this in my early years of troubleshooting. techs must understand how these work as it goes a long way in troubleshooting.
If you can turn a one way bearing with your hand then that bearing and shaft is good. most of the time it will be the shaft that fails, as those bearings are made of very hardened steel.

ENGINEERS GIVE YOUR INPUT HERE. REPLY TO THIS THREAD

[subaro]

Why would you put oil in the oneway isnt that defeating the point of it being a oneway? Im not trying to start a argument but i find myself going time and time again to call backs from other techs because they sprayed the oneways or clutches with oil.

DOES ANYONE HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT THIS GUYS REPLY. He has pointed out what his co-workers does in the field. This is so important, as most machines do contain mechanical and electronic clutches and one way bearings. He has asked a valid question. both myself and blackcat has replied, but need to hear from more techs and engineers about this.

voice your opinions on this subject. there are lots of junior and senior techs who need to hear your voices.

[Hansoon]

One Way's with metal cage > clean out crud >oil

One Way's with plastic cage >clean out crud > NO oil

my 2C's

Hans

[Brett GS]

Thanks blackcat,worth a read. I generally change the clutches and oneway's but will definatly try oil on them to see the results.

[blackcat4866]

Here's an example of a worn shaft that I came across last week. This is on a Canon iR5055, but it demonstrates the point:

28552

=^..^=

[habik]

If you check the 1-way in ADF, you'll see it nicely oiled up. And it has plastic casing (#Hansoon).
I've used few oils and so far gearbox oil does the trick. But first a good spray with IPA to get the muck out use corner of lint free cloth(cotton sheets although the new sheets are crap as they semi/synthethic)

Also there is bulletin for side door on vertical path which you want to check and a conveyance roller in vertical path.
I know the feeling of 2nd visit final fix! Good luck mate and heads up. We are all humans and so is the client! Just smile ;)

I change them every 2nd tyre change(mark it wit permanent marker)



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[copytechman]

If you check the 1-way in ADF, you'll see it nicely oiled up. And it has plastic casing (#Hansoon).
I've used few oils and so far gearbox oil does the trick. But first a good spray with IPA to get the muck out use corner of lint free cloth(cotton sheets although the new sheets are crap as they semi/synthethic)

Also there is bulletin for side door on vertical path which you want to check and a conveyance roller in vertical path.
I know the feeling of 2nd visit final fix! Good luck mate and heads up. We are all humans and so is the client! Just smile ;)

I change them every 2nd tyre change(mark it wit permanent marker)



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I too have the seen the cleaning fix (99% isopropyl), as yet have never had to oil a one-way in the white or black plastic cage and very very rarely had to replace one either. This pertains the feed units on multiple KM machines particularily... I might lightly clean the shaft as well... have yet to have a return call on one that was done this way.

My 2c worth!

Regards!
A.

[subaro]

This pertains the feed units on multiple KM machines particularily. PREVIOUS REPLY

DOES KM refers to konica minolta or kyocera mita ?

It is good that the replies about one way bearings are coming in. So far, techs are posting with diffrent methods they use to clean and lubricate or not lubricate them.

aslo good to hear opinions on electronic and spring loaded clutches . service or just replace ?

LET THE VOICES KEEP ROLLING.

[habik]

This pertains the feed units on multiple KM machines particularily. PREVIOUS REPLY

DOES KM refers to konica minolta or kyocera mita ?

It is good that the replies about one way bearings are coming in. So far, techs are posting with diffrent methods they use to clean and lubricate or not lubricate them.

aslo good to hear opinions on electronic and spring loaded clutches . service or just replace ?

LET THE VOICES KEEP ROLLING.

Konica electric clutch> disassemble clean NO OIL!! (Registration/feed units)
Konica electric clutch full metal type C650 tray 3 and such > duster or replace only.

Kyocera - disassemble clean plates with WD40 to get rid of rust and residue. Then IPA to clean off the WD40 from the clutch plate contact area. Assembly. (TA5500i series)


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[copier addict]

we got a customer a used konica 222. worked fine for a week and then started having paper feed trouble in top drawer. would only pick up paper but not advance it. i cleaned feed tires and it worked for a few days and started again. told custoner i would order feed tires and to put paper in 2nd drawer whidh i had also cleaned. worked for a few hours and then same problem. i find it hard to believe that both drawers need new feed tires, could this be another problem.

There is an electromagnetic clutch in the main feed drive assembly, behind the paper trays, that has a nasty habit of failing. This is where your problem likely stems from. You need to remove paper trays, bypass and both feed assemblies to get at it. Also remove the back cover to get at the connector. The drive assembly is held on by five screws.
The clutch part# is 9322 1500 12.
Hope this helps

[Hansoon]

And it has plastic casing (#Hansoon).

Errrr.... I said and meant "Cage" not case. The cage is where the little needles ("rollers") are sitting in holding them in place.

Hans

[habik]

Errrr.... I said and meant "Cage" not case. The cage is where the little needles ("rollers") are sitting in holding them in place.

Hans

Apologies Hans, My bad. Misunderstood it.
Do you remember a case where plastic cage is used? :)





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[Hansoon]

.
No problem Pal.


Do you remember a case where plastic cage is used?

Not sure what you mean exactly but when you're not hinting at chickens in a transport cage, is this going the 50-Shades-of-Grey direction? LOL

Hans

[habik]

.
No problem Pal.



Not sure what you mean exactly but when you're not hinting at chickens in a transport cage, is this going the 50-Shades-of-Grey direction? LOL

Hans

Wunderbar zeitung. Meine frage ist zum Die Maschinen mit diese Torrington einbahn/zuruckstop chassis.


Bwahahaa zwei und zwantzig jahhren aius die Schule .
I need to go to Germany to learn this proper. :)


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[DOE]

There is an electromagnetic clutch in the main feed drive assembly, behind the paper trays, that has a nasty habit of failing. This is where your problem likely stems from. You need to remove paper trays, bypass and both feed assemblies to get at it. Also remove the back cover to get at the connector. The drive assembly is held on by five screws.
The clutch part# is 9322 1500 12.
Hope this helps
replaced feed tires in both units and cleaned one ways. first tray works fine second tray still doesnt work. would you still think it could be that clutch since tray 1 works fine now

[Brett GS]

replaced feed tires in both units and cleaned one ways. first tray works fine second tray still doesnt work. would you still think it could be that clutch since tray 1 works fine now
The clucth behind the bypass tray is proberbly shot,had on fail on me last week.

Brett

[copier addict]

replaced feed tires in both units and cleaned one ways. first tray works fine second tray still doesnt work. would you still think it could be that clutch since tray 1 works fine now

There are clutches on the 2nd tray feed unit. One turns the feed roller and one turns the vertical rollers. If the paper is not leaving the tray it may be the smaller clutch. If the paper is getting out of the tray and to the vertical roller it may be the bigger clutch. There is also a dual gear assembly with a one way bearing. Remove it and clean it up.
Hope this helps

[DOE]

There are clutches on the 2nd tray feed unit. One turns the feed roller and one turns the vertical rollers. If the paper is not leaving the tray it may be the smaller clutch. If the paper is getting out of the tray and to the vertical roller it may be the bigger clutch. There is also a dual gear assembly with a one way bearing. Remove it and clean it up.
Hope this helps
this copier has me wanting to find a new profession. after replacing all feed tires and one ways the 2nd tray worked fine but the fisrt tray will make a copy then jam in tray. i took out bypass and feed units and replaced clutch that sits behind bypass. no change in drawer 1 still jams and now drawer 2 makes a gear grinding noise and doesnt work at all now. took everything apart 5 times and dont see a reason for the grinding noise in tray 2. didnt touch the feed unit just replaced clutch and now it grinds. everything seams to turn freely bypass works fine. i know you cant see the machine to know whats causing the grinding noise but hope someone has had this happen before and might have a idea. does mot grind out of tray 1

[pepper38_cnd]

28788Check or change items 32 and 33 make sure 32 is not put on backwards. There were several mods for cracking trays which can cause miss-feeds. Check to see that no wires were nicked or pinched by the bypass mounts.
You did mention in the beginning that this was a used machine sale. If it were me I'd be looking to swap it out at this point.

[allan]

I use a Small flat file to ruff up the shafts it they are worn out.

[subaro]

Ah! An opportunity to step up on my soapbox!

You may have slipping one-way bearings in the feed units. Quite often, these one-way bearings are not treated correctly.

You'll want to soak out the one-way bearing (aka Torrington) in alcohol, and run a Q-tip around the opening. When it's dried a little add a single drop of light oil (like Triflow) to the bearing.

Check the shaft for wear. It's OK if it's smooth or shiney, but not OK if it has worn down in size/diameter. If the plating has peeled off you'll need to replace the shaft. It is common practice (and completely wrong) to score up the shaft with steel wool or green scrubbie. This action damages the shaft, forcing you to replace it. The one-way bearing needs the maximum surface contact with the shaft, and scoring up reduces the surface contact, and reduces the shaft size.

Some techs replace these one-way bearings every other tire change, or even every time. =^..^=

<<blackcat steps down off his soapbox>>
allan


allan

Re: konica 222 feed problems
I use a Small flat file to ruff up the shafts it they are worn out.

Hey Allan, just referring to what blackcat said about shaft . see his post above, this is from the same thread. Everyone has his own method for getting things done and that is perfectly fine as if it produces the desired results. But i have to agree with blackcat on this one. I guess if you clean it from dirt and grease and lube the one way it should be fine. if the shaft is worn, you will have to replace it. But rearly do i replace a shaft, only on very high volume machines and not because they have problem, but for maintenance purposes .

[allan]

allan


allan
Re: konica 222 feed problems
I use a Small flat file to ruff up the shafts it they are worn out.

Hey Allan, just referring to what blackcat said about shaft . see his post above, this is from the same thread. Everyone has his own method for getting things done and that is perfectly fine as if it produces the desired results. But i have to agree with blackcat on this one. I guess if you clean it from dirt and grease and lube the one way it should be fine. if the shaft is worn, you will have to replace it. But rearly do i replace a shaft, only on very high volume machines and not because they have problem, but for maintenance purposes .



Yes i do clean out the clutches and even replace them and entire feed units if the shafts and bushings are worn out. I have fixed tones of feeding problems like this. If a shaft is shot its shot and needs to be replaced. Sometimes the shafts would get a high mirror polished surface and the clutch does not grip on there . By filing it a bit it gives a textured surface that would let it grip again you don't even remove 5 microns from it. You need to be care full to clean the shaft with contact cleaner before and after.

[subaro]

this copier has me wanting to find a new profession. after replacing all feed tires and one ways.

Pulling hairs, it happens to all of us at some time or the other, this is your's.

You said you replaced the roller clean, then replace the roller in tray 1 and it worked but now jams again. see the parts list attached and check that every thing is in it its place correctyly, especially the springs and the actuators. make sure they are moving freely and spring back easily. pay attention to item number 9 which i believe is the feed actuator, it has a spring on it. check this actuator if it is not bent or piece broken from it. maginfy the drawing so you can see where all the parts are exactly.
There are four sensors on this pickup/feed section, make sure they are sitting firmly and not loose.
IT is picking up ok, therefore CL4 is ok,therefore you should replace CL2 which is the feed.
Check all the items that has one way bearings, turn them on the shaft with your hand and make sure they are not slipping. If it does not slip when you turn by hand then they are fine.

Also, where exactly does the paper stop when it jams, and does it happens every time it makes one print or copy.
ARE there any jam codes. look at the list and see the one that is the most recent and post.

tray 2. put back the old clutch that you replace and see what happens, is it the correct clutch. compare with the old clutch part numbers.

According to the parts list, there is only one clutch in the drive unit and i think you replaced it already.

If the problems are intermittent, you could have pinch wiring, or faulty engine pwb.

Lastly.. can you swap tray 1 with 2 or are they diffrent units. don't know the machine really, but looking at the drawings.

Lots of konica techs out there that knows these machines. what would you do.


neil greenhough (http://www.copytechnet.com/forums/members/neil-greenhough.html) i see from his posts, has lots of experience with these machine, his input would be nice here.