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blackcat4866
04-23-2015, 02:17 AM
Here's the best part: per the enduser, it only occurs about every 5000 pages!

From the samples, the line is always 32mm from the leading edge, in the crossfeed direction.

The closest I could get to the 32mm interval was at the fuser inlet guide. I'm guessing that occasionally a page levitates over the transfer belt, and when the page hits the bite of the fuser rollers, the page briefly touches the top inlet guide.

The interval is not right for the drum claws. Has anybody seen this one? =^..^=

28903

wseyller
04-23-2015, 04:44 AM
5,000 lmfao. And I thought my day was hell.

I notice it happens exactly at the spot where it starts laying down toner for the image. Is that just a coincidence?

allan
04-23-2015, 05:09 AM
Look at the voided areas around the lettering. Its monetary arching or loosing charge?
Is it in the same position every time. Its probably happening more often than 5000 pages that is probably the only pages that gets noticed.

blackcat4866
04-24-2015, 01:23 AM
5,000 lmfao. And I thought my day was hell.

I notice it happens exactly at the spot where it starts laying down toner for the image. Is that just a coincidence?

It's just a coincidence. Every sample is at 32mm.


Look at the voided areas around the lettering. Its monetary arching or loosing charge?
Is it in the same position every time. Its probably happening more often than 5000 pages that is probably the only pages that gets noticed.

Possibly arcing. Yes always exactly 32mm from the leading edge, and usually the first page of a stapled set. But arcing where, to what?

This machine does between 25K and 30K a day, so that's ~6 events per day. Maybe more. Oh yes, 2.5M prints and rising daily.
My enduser said that they stopped using this machine because of the problem, yet did 70K in 3 days on said machine. =^..^=

Zackuth
04-24-2015, 03:04 PM
I've just fought a similar problem on a 1051. Replaced charge grid and wires. The voids around the prints as Allan pointed out lead to this fix.

allan
04-24-2015, 06:43 PM
Its one of those inspector Cluzo cases.
Is that the first page of a stapled set regardless of the page count per set. I would intentional bump the machine to see if i can recreate it.
Thinking that the stapler could cause a jitter is way out there.

I feel your frustration.

blackcat4866
04-24-2015, 09:32 PM
I've just fought a similar problem on a 1051. Replaced charge grid and wires. The voids around the prints as Allan pointed out lead to this fix.

I'll do the wires and grid Monday (yes they called back).


Its one of those inspector Cluzo cases.
Is that the first page of a stapled set regardless of the page count per set. I would intentional bump the machine to see if i can recreate it.
Thinking that the stapler could cause a jitter is way out there.

I feel your frustration.

like you, I can't imagine the stapler causing a jitter from a meter away. Not enough samples to be very sure of anything. =^..^=

JR2ALTA
04-25-2015, 01:24 AM
My instructor said it is very common for end users to turn of the main power before turning off the subpower. The subpower allows for a gradual temp reduction that can last as long as 30 minutes.

He warned this action will cause toner to harden and cake up in the transfer cleaning area resulting in image issues, noises and a heck of a clean up.

just a thought

blackcat4866
04-25-2015, 02:26 AM
My instructor said it is very common for end users to turn of the main power before turning off the subpower. The subpower allows for a gradual temp reduction that can last as long as 30 minutes.

He warned this action will cause toner to harden and cake up in the transfer cleaning area resulting in image issues, noises and a heck of a clean up.

just a thought

It's worth looking at. Thanks Junior. I'll take it apart and see what's there. On the sister machine it frayed the rear side of the transfer belt at 1.6M, so I've been in there. Curiously, the belt still walks a little to the rear, and I doubt it will meet a 12M yield expectation. =^..^=

Mick01
04-27-2015, 12:31 AM
Hi,
I would check the earthing of the fur brush inside the cleaning unit. I have had issues on the previous models where the shaft needs to be cleaned that drives the fur brush roller that caused similar problems.
hope this helps.

blackcat4866
04-27-2015, 01:06 AM
Hi,
I would check the earthing of the fur brush inside the cleaning unit. I have had issues on the previous models where the shaft needs to be cleaned that drives the fur brush roller that caused similar problems.
hope this helps.

Thanks Mick. I changed the fur brush recently, but cannot remember exactly what the grounding looked like. Do you know how this translates into the 32mm interval from the leading edge? A reasonable guess might be that the discharge during a previous cleaned image cycles around to overlay the next page ...

On recollection, there is a roll pin drive at the rear. And at the front a white plastic bearing holder, felt seal, bearing, gear, and clip. If there is a ground contact, it must a spring clip in the front or rear imaging drawer frame. There was no black grease that I can recall seeing. I'll check that. =^..^=

Mick01
04-27-2015, 01:38 AM
Hi,
The earthing is through the rear shaft bearing. The drive shaft gets dirty (and even wears where it goes through the bearing). I recommend every time the fur brush roller gets replaced that the shaft is pulled out, inspected and cleaned. I am unsure about the process at the 32mm lead edge interval, I can only assume that with the increased resistance on the roller you are getting drum neutralising issues. sorry my explanation is a bit vague, I specialise on our colour devices normally and dont get involved much with B&W problems.

Again hope this helps.

blackcat4866
04-29-2015, 02:18 AM
OK, so here are my observations.

Primary: There was some light toner dusting on both sides of the grid, and light ozone coating on the housing. Replaced primary wires and grid.

Cleaning Unit: Like most rolling ground contacts you don't see a steady reading. When I started I found:
0.02 Ω ground to inner roller
0.55 Ω ground to the brush
After the addition of conductive grease and a few shims I got:
0.02 Ω ground to the inner roller
0.06 Ω ground to the brush

Transfer Unit:
I think I found something here:
3.0 Ω ground to the driven roller
2.0 Ω ground to the transfer roller
0.6 Ω ground to the belt idler
After the addition of conductive grease and a few shims I got:
0.06 Ω ground to the driven roller
0.6 Ω ground to transfer roller
0.5 Ω ground to belt idler

There was noticeable toner dusting on the bottom of the drum claw guide (which I had cleaned only a few days before). My theory is that is where the image is getting smudged: pre-fusing. It only seems to occur on the 2nd side printed (or the first side image of the originals), and now can be seen on every page of a set (naturally in the samples only. I still can't get it to present for me).
Ordinarily I shun the shotgun approach to troubleshooting, but I'm getting tired of this machine kicking my ass. And it won't present the symptom for me anyway. Time will tell.

Thanks for the help. =^..^=

blackcat4866
04-30-2015, 01:04 AM
Callback again, but this time the lines are considerable more faint. The drum claw guide remained clean.

I thought I'd take a different approach today. Since it's affecting duplex copying/printing, I thought perhaps I might find some unfused toner dumped in the inverter path, and getting picked up while inverting. The inverter was packed with paper dust, and a dozen shreds of paper from previous jams, but no toner. Some of it is fairly easy to clean, but the area under the fuser is inaccessible without a total teardown. As a compromise I took a heavy transparency, wrapped it with a stretch-N-dust, and rolled it through the inverter path. The rollers and sensors cleaned up easily.

Not really expecting to see the problem I ran 120 duplex. Toward the end of the test I did start to see the faintest hint of the line.

My plan "B" for today was to swap the transfer belt assy with the sister machine across the isleway to see if I can move the problem. After the swap both machines ran 300 duplex without the symptom. We'll know for sure tomorrow, when they will print another 30K. If it's truly gone, I'll replace the bad transfer belt assy. I would like to know exactly what was causing it, but enough is enough. =^..^=

blackcat4866
05-05-2015, 04:29 AM
It was the plan "B" that bore fruit. I created the issue on the sister machine, so the transfer belt assy is part of the problem. It took 5 days for it to come back to the original machine. I interpret that to mean that the transfer cleaning unit is suspect also.

As a plan "C" I see that there are HVT contacts to the transfer cleaning unit. Maybe HVT next? =^..^=

blackcat4866
05-07-2015, 04:23 AM
Transfer belt assy didn't help. Transfer cleaning assy on order. It seems to have spread like a virus to the other machine now.

Customer is making threats now. That's always so helpful. =^..^=

allan
05-07-2015, 08:25 AM
Are you sticking to PM scheduled on those machines?
Maybe time for some new units?

blackcat4866
05-08-2015, 02:25 AM
2.3M and 2.7M respectively as of today. They've had all the scheduled, recommended by KM maintenance. The new transfer belt assy made it more faint but not gone. I've got the transfer belt cleaner assemblies on the way.

I have a hard time reconciling that the machine can run from 1000 to 5000 without a single flaw before commencing the line problem.

Ideas that I have been toying with:
Transfer belt cleaner drive? There is no evidence of waste buildup in the cleaning unit.
HVT? Perhaps some kind of a spike in the cleaner bias? But how does that fit with occurring exactly 32mm from the leading edge?
How about transfer timing? Perhaps there is some residual image left on the belt that reprints on the next rotation. It does not look like a belt cleaning problem though. The "line" is not affected by positioning of large blocks of fill. Even where there is no fill in line, the "line" remains.

Ah well, I'll stumble on. =^..^=

allan
05-08-2015, 07:07 AM
That would leave you with the components that creates image. Like charge and dev bias. But in the same place every time? could it be a power or an EMI problem?

Zackuth
05-08-2015, 02:49 PM
Try the LPH. I had one of the LEDs start to fail and a new LPH solved the issue.

blackcat4866
05-09-2015, 04:13 AM
We're calling the hotline Monday. The belt cleaner unit produced incremental improvements. If you know where to look, you can still find a few smudgy gray areas in that 32mm range. I tried to catch it in a photo, but the camera doesn't even pick it up any more. If only the enduser could forget where to look. =^..^=

blackcat4866
05-12-2015, 01:39 AM
I brought along our other KM trained tech today. The black developing unit solved the issue. That developing unit was supposed to rebuild at 8M. I ran 3000 of my customers job without a hitch. The job was supposed to last 360 minutes per the Job Screen. I left after the first 300 sets.
=^..^=

blackcat4866
05-15-2015, 01:22 AM
Back after 60K. No resolution yet. =^..^=

blackcat4866
06-12-2015, 03:27 AM
Following up:

We don't know very much for sure. The marks on the edge of the stack 34mm from the leading edge, seem to be somehow related to the alignment of the transfer belt. After much trial and error (mostly error) we found a setting in which the marks on the sides of the paper were not present some of the time. Within a few thousand copies it returned, and could be removed again with a slight tweak to the transfer belt alignment.

The smudge 32mm from the leading edge on the first side was briefly joined by a matching smudge 40mm from the leading edge of the second side. It went away within a few thousand copies.

We wasted some time cleaning the duplex section again, and checking fan & filters. KM is saying that these smudges may be caused by the finisher. I have a little problem with this theory. How exactly would that smudge be fused, if it happened after passing through the fuser? Explain that.

We also reduced the registration loop by 4 points. IMHO the loop was excessive. I think the official rule is "Any amount of buckle more than none, is enough." It made no difference whatsoever. Within 500 duplex copies both the side marks and the smudge were back. Curiously, after watching it buckle for 1/2 hour, I noticed that the rear part of the buckle flattens more than the front part of the buckle. There is no paper skew or image skew, and never was. It probably means nothing, but I'm hoping that some of these observations might eventually get me somewhere. =^..^=

allan
06-12-2015, 08:02 AM
Have you tried to adjust the fuser speed?

blackcat4866
06-13-2015, 03:34 PM
No. Would that imply the the fuser speed was changing in the middle of a run? =^..^=

allan
06-14-2015, 08:27 PM
No. Would that imply the the fuser speed was changing in the middle of a run? =^..^=

There is a line speed adjustment on the machine, it could be that the paper gets tugged by the fuser or the opposite.

blackcat4866
07-02-2015, 02:57 AM
Have you tried to adjust the fuser speed?

Update: KM sent us some busy work. We were sent a 4 page process called "linearization", aka image adjustments to anybody else. Since I really had nothing better to do I followed them to the letter. The first adjustment seemed to make the most improvement. What was it? Fuser Speed.

I was getting a very subtle line blur 120mm from the trail, best seen on test pattern #9. The text in the manual is particularly unclear about how the adjustment works. By trial and error I successfully made it much worse before making it better (improvement= -2 clicks). On machine #1 the line and side smudge disappeared completely. On machine #2 the line is very faint at 1000 duplex, and the side smudge fades in and out. That's a big improvement over steadily increasing defect.

I do not understand the connection ... yet ... but I will. Thanks allan. =^..^=

blackcat4866
07-25-2015, 02:12 AM
I think we might finally have resolution on this one. My KM rep has been out yesterday and today. The firmware update didn't make any quality difference. The only difference I did notice is that the machine talks to me now. It's not the voices in my head, that's something different.

Nearly a day into it we got a suggestion to import a data backup from another 1052 to see if we could change the problem. There are 4 parts to the backup. The full backup created a totally different quality problem ... but removed our line. So we restored the original data, and imported only the Paper Tray Settings, which completely resolved the issue. Now there were a number of compensations set in those tray settings: fuser power, humidity, curl, media type, etc. We changed those items back one at a time without bringing back the issue. So somewhere in those tray settings is a specific setting that caused the issue.

We looked at the backup file in a text editor, and it's completely unreadable. Perhaps it's encrypted. Who knows? But there was no way to directly compare the data between the two Paper Tray Settings backups.

To throw a little more confusion on the topic we identified some hard to explain features to the line problem:
*It does not occur on LTR-R paper, regardless of the tray.
*It occurred on both LGL and LGR 311mm from the trail edge, regardless of the tray.
*It occurred on LTR 185mm from the trailing edge, regardless of the tray
*It only occurred after several hundred to several thousand consecutive pages.
*It occurred primarily on odd numbered sides of duplex. Efforts to fix the problem often caused the line to appear on the even sides also.
*The image fault is a scattering of toner (not digital in nature), not in any way connected with the content of the image. Areas with no fill at all were just as likely to show the problem.
*There was a slight halo around text when the line passed through a line of text. There was no blurring or distortion of that text. It was almost as if the charged area of the image was repelling the scattering of toner.

I hope this can help save someone some trouble. =^..^=

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