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  1. #251
    scrub 500+ Posts jmaister's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe that Climate Change is real and caused by mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by gneebore View Post
    Well taking a stab and looking at the general tone of the earlier post it seems he is implying we need to go back to before the industrial revolution and possibly return to the "hunter gatherer" stage of human existence or subsistence farming where you have you own little plot where you grow your own food and care for your own animals for food and clothing from the hides. Probably around the Bronze age. Oh wait that would mean someone actually had to mine the ore/metal and smelt the metal from the ore. And then form the metal into tools. Ah isn't that the basis of "business?"
    tho "self" in self sufficient was indeed implied somewhat rudimentary, but I meant "self sufficient" as before vicious business practice and mass production got involved(and I do apologize for my lack of ability to articulate, cant write to save my own life). We are not really utilizing the benefit of said any technology in a good way but rather abusing it to make fast dollars.

    before we talk climate change, human thinking and practice needs to be looked at. We arent doing things for our own good, and not everyone is on the same page.

    as for Trump discussion, i thought this is a good video.
    Last edited by jmaister; 11-06-2017 at 05:22 PM.
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  2. #252
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    Re: Do you believe that Climate Change is real and caused by mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmaister View Post
    tho "self" in self sufficient was indeed implied somewhat rudimentary, but I meant "self sufficient" as before vicious business practice and mass production got involved(and I do apologize for my lack of ability to articulate, cant write to save my own life). We are not really utilizing the benefit of said any technology in a good way but rather abusing it to make fast dollars.

    before we talk climate change, human thinking and practice needs to be looked at. We arent doing things for our own good, and not everyone is on the same page.

    as for Trump discussion, i thought this is a good video.
    First one tiny bit of glaring error. Without mass production you would not have any of the common day to day necessities at a reasonable price, like for instance light bulbs. We would still be using candles and or oil lamps. But here is an explanation of cost being brought down by mass production.
    How much did the first light bulb cost? | Reference.com


    Then there is that horrid mass produced object so vilified as a pollution source no one should own one, the automobile. Back before autos were common we had horse drawn carriages to get around in. Going more than twenty miles to complete any sort of commercial or personal business was a day long outing. Then in the case of cities, like New York there was the need to clean up after the horses. Horse dung was a major source or debris in the streets of Manhatten in the late 1800's. Or to add to the discussion if mass production was not used then then there more than likely be no auto in any sort of price range that anyone other than the top one percent would be able to afford. Yes if Henry Ford had not introduced the assembly line to manufacture auto the average price of an auto was 3,000 dollars when the average wage earned was 500 dollars a year. But then that would suit the environmentalist leftist mantra that the evil rich are to blame for the lack of basic transportation for the working man.

  3. #253
    Technician jimmcgee's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe that Climate Change is real and caused by mankind?

    I don't have to believe, the proof is overwhelming. John Coleman sounds more like a snake oil salesman than a scientist. Renewable energy will overtake fossil fuels regardless of how much money the oil and coal industry throws at discrediting it because it is more efficient and cheaper. I predict that by the end of the century electricity will be almost free as renewables and fusion take over. These are the disruptive technologies that the miners are afraid of.

  4. #254
    Technician jimmcgee's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe that Climate Change is real and caused by mankind?

    Using renewables is not going backwards to the stone age, it is technology moving forwards. It is self evident when you see a gas powered vehicle chugging down the road expelling all sorts of pollutants into the air. Soon after an electric vehicle hums by running on sunlight. You tell me, which is the future?

  5. #255
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    Re: Do you believe that Climate Change is real and caused by mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmcgee View Post
    Using renewables is not going backwards to the stone age, it is technology moving forwards. It is self evident when you see a gas powered vehicle chugging down the road expelling all sorts of pollutants into the air. Soon after an electric vehicle hums by running on sunlight. You tell me, which is the future?
    Probably not all electric. Unless they actually develop one that can go further than an estimated forty miles before requiring a recharge. Plus the problem with the batteries. Right now the lithium used in the batteries is one of the most toxic wastes found. Almost as bad as the CFL light bulbs that have to be mailed back to a recycling center because of the mercury used in them. The replacement batteries of most ev's cost about a fourth to one third the cost of the car and that is every 75 to 100 k miles according to most car websites. Plus the cost of the cars themselves. One service tech that I know of had a Prius hybrid. His car hit the 100 k mileage mark and the batteries had to be replaced. Cost four years ago was 6,000 dollars and a recycling fee. He also bragged how great his per miles was around town. But too bad for him most of the driving he ended up doing was highway miles and then he ended up with less miles per gallon than I got on my gas powered Saturn. Yes it still actually gets 29 mpg around town and then close to 34 mpg on the road. The Prius got 30 mpg around town and less than 25 mpg on the road at highway speed limits.

    Oh yes there is also the power required for recharging the electric vehicles, Most owners now use their home recharging units at night during off peak electricity. And these can take all night to recharge a depleted battery using 110 volts and normal housing electrical wiring. However there are estimated recharging requirements for some currently sold vehicles that require 19 kilowatts which is enough to power one residential sized home. There is no foreseeable increase in electric vehicle range per charge, still 35 to maybe 50 miles for the majority of the cars. Just imagine the electrical grid that has to be built to power all the charging stations for just a tenth of the estimated 260 million vehicles on the road now that are gasoline powered.

    Here is an actually study by the Energy Department on recharging possibilities in 2014.

    https://www.smartgrid.gov/files/B3_r...014_report.pdf

  6. #256
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    Re: Do you believe that Climate Change is real and caused by mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmcgee View Post
    I don't have to believe, the proof is overwhelming. John Coleman sounds more like a snake oil salesman than a scientist. Renewable energy will overtake fossil fuels regardless of how much money the oil and coal industry throws at discrediting it because it is more efficient and cheaper. I predict that by the end of the century electricity will be almost free as renewables and fusion take over. These are the disruptive technologies that the miners are afraid of.
    Maybe renewables if the two or three different environmental groups quit fighting over "not in my back yard put them somewhere else" nonsense. Right now there are plans being drawn up to develop offshore wind farms off the coast of South Carolina. Too bad an environmental group has threatened lawsuits to block them being built because there is no need. Then you mention fusion. Sorry given how nasty the waste from that is I prefer hydro carbon fossil fuels instead. Just to name two disaster involving nuclear there is Chernobyl and there is Three Mile Island. Chernobyl has made hundreds of square miles unlivable due to the radiation released. Then there is Three Mile Island. Happened in the seventies and wasn't as bad. But there was measurable radioactivity in the rains three hundred miles away in NJ. And that was a steam leak. Oh yes add the recent Fukishima reactor failure due to a tidal wave. News reports are mentioning toxic radioactive waters washing up onto the west coast of North America still. Several years after that episode since some of the retaining walls are weakening.

  7. #257
    scrub 500+ Posts jmaister's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe that Climate Change is real and caused by mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by gneebore View Post
    First one tiny bit of glaring error. Without mass production you would not have any of the common day to day necessities at a reasonable price, like for instance light bulbs. We would still be using candles and or oil lamps. But here is an explanation of cost being brought down by mass production.
    How much did the first light bulb cost? | Reference.com


    Then there is that horrid mass produced object so vilified as a pollution source no one should own one, the automobile. Back before autos were common we had horse drawn carriages to get around in. Going more than twenty miles to complete any sort of commercial or personal business was a day long outing. Then in the case of cities, like New York there was the need to clean up after the horses. Horse dung was a major source or debris in the streets of Manhatten in the late 1800's. Or to add to the discussion if mass production was not used then then there more than likely be no auto in any sort of price range that anyone other than the top one percent would be able to afford. Yes if Henry Ford had not introduced the assembly line to manufacture auto the average price of an auto was 3,000 dollars when the average wage earned was 500 dollars a year. But then that would suit the environmentalist leftist mantra that the evil rich are to blame for the lack of basic transportation for the working man.
    but, has it gotten better? They were just horse dungs. Concentration of dungs isnt the problem, but why was there concentration of horses? Dungs were never the root problem. Like now, climate change is not the problem, its the symptom.

    Pollution isnt the root problem, tho dire. Combustion powered machinery isnt the problem, as everyone need them. This fact is as plain as day light. I'm not discounting technologies thats beneficial(just my lack of ability to include many thoughts in few words), but even they cost something in the manufacturing process.

    Same root problem, different symptom.

    Humans are powerful beings, so powerful, we can choose to be the disease of the planet or its restorer. The latter is more difficult and less appealing it seems.

    thx for being a good sport sir, nice chattin with ya.
    An idling develper is not a healthy developer.

    Fragmented mind.

  8. #258
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    Re: Do you believe that Climate Change is real and caused by mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmaister View Post
    but, has it gotten better? They were just horse dungs. Concentration of dungs isnt the problem, but why was there concentration of horses? Dungs were never the root problem. Like now, climate change is not the problem, its the symptom.

    Pollution isnt the root problem, tho dire. Combustion powered machinery isnt the problem, as everyone need them. This fact is as plain as day light. I'm not discounting technologies thats beneficial(just my lack of ability to include many thoughts in few words), but even they cost something in the manufacturing process.

    Same root problem, different symptom.

    Humans are powerful beings, so powerful, we can choose to be the disease of the planet or its restorer. The latter is more difficult and less appealing it seems.

    thx for being a good sport sir, nice chattin with ya.

    Everything has a trade-off. Currently one of the environmental problems is the use of mercury in cfl light bulbs. The EPA actually has a rather long list of the recommended cleaning procedure to follow if you drop one in your house. Have a look it is about a page and a half on how to safely clean up a broken cfl bulb in your house.
    Dangers of CFL Mercury Light Bulbs

    As for the horse dung that was to illustrate a problem that may have actually been worse than the replacement of horses by automobiles. There were literally tons of horse manure dropped in the city streets of Manhatten alone each day. And yes back then there weren't easy ways to clean it up. Just a rather large number on men with push brooms and shovels. Oh and to add to the problem there were a whole bunch of rats running through the dung getting it on their feet and fur and then entering homes and oh no even food markets and kitchens, And of cpurse where you have manure you have flies landing and taking even minute particles of defecation with them wherever they flew next. Just imagine the numbers of horse drawn wagons that would be needed to replace the number of cars being driven into the city today and all the stables that would be needed to house them when not pulling a cart or wagon. Oh yes there is one other nasty thing about horses. They also urinate wherever they get the urge, Nice rivers of smelly horse urine running through the streets. I'll take the cars.

    The only way we can actually go back to the agrarian style living is for one heck of a population reduction. Like the reported one child per family rule in China, Which really hasn't seemed to reduce the population there any over the last twenty years when i first heard about it.

  9. #259
    Technician jimmcgee's Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe that Climate Change is real and caused by mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by gneebore View Post
    Maybe renewables if the two or three different environmental groups quit fighting over "not in my back yard put them somewhere else" nonsense. Right now there are plans being drawn up to develop offshore wind farms off the coast of South Carolina. Too bad an environmental group has threatened lawsuits to block them being built because there is no need. Then you mention fusion. Sorry given how nasty the waste from that is I prefer hydro carbon fossil fuels instead. Just to name two disaster involving nuclear there is Chernobyl and there is Three Mile Island. Chernobyl has made hundreds of square miles unlivable due to the radiation released. Then there is Three Mile Island. Happened in the seventies and wasn't as bad. But there was measurable radioactivity in the rains three hundred miles away in NJ. And that was a steam leak. Oh yes add the recent Fukishima reactor failure due to a tidal wave. News reports are mentioning toxic radioactive waters washing up onto the west coast of North America still. Several years after that episode since some of the retaining walls are weakening.
    All of these nuclear reactors are fission reactors which produce radioactive waste and sometimes meltdown. What I'm talking about is fusion reactors which use sea water for fuel and produce helium as a waste product. There is a project in Europe called Iter, which will be the largest fusion reactor ever built. We will have fusion generators by the end of this century. Take a look back to where we stood this time last century. We had only just learnt to fly. Now whole building fly across the world.

  10. #260
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    Re: Do you believe that Climate Change is real and caused by mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmcgee View Post
    All of these nuclear reactors are fission reactors which produce radioactive waste and sometimes meltdown. What I'm talking about is fusion reactors which use sea water for fuel and produce helium as a waste product. There is a project in Europe called Iter, which will be the largest fusion reactor ever built. We will have fusion generators by the end of this century. Take a look back to where we stood this time last century. We had only just learnt to fly. Now whole building fly across the world.
    There is still radioactive wastes. Granted a whole lot less but the entire plant(reactor vessel) once it reaches the end of it useful life becomes radioactive waste for a term estimated to be 50 to 100 years. Have not seen any sites that actually listed the project life cycle of the plant. But admittedly it wasn't part of what I searched for. Given the way environmental movements work I suspect that there will be a whole lot of roadblocks put up to delay or prevent the fusion plants from being built. More than likely the mindset of "the man lied before so who is to say he isn't lying now just to build a poison generator like the old nuclear power plants" Looks like a reasonable and possible future energy source like you said at the end of the century.

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