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  1. #1
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    Are You Paying Attention!!?? - Why The Demand In Used Machines With China!??

    chrisban35's Avatar
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    Are You Paying Attention!!?? - Why The Demand In Used Machines With China!??

    I've been in this industry going on 30 years, and I have to say, there is a very peculiar event unfolding here. Let's go through the arguments first... China is sucking down a MASSIVE AMOUNT of our used inventory hitting the wholesalers... But WHY is the real question. Here's the excuses...

    They need the resources, they want certain types of components, they are helping the world with recycling, they made the components and they simply want to reuse them, etc...

    BUT, let's get real for a moment.... The "components" they supposedly want to retrieve, are in almost every single manufacturer out there. They cost on average about 3 to 4 times the money to "recycle" when they are one of the richest sources for the metals in them. Not to mention, the "process" to break them down, smelt, and then fabricate back into reusable components, is one heck of an undertaking.... So WHY does China go through the MASS AMOUNT of effort to take our machines!!?? So "WHY" are they only targeting the most EXPENSIVE/POPULAR machines and manufacturers? The ones in highest demand!? If they simply want "resources" why not go after the machines they can get the cheapest, and obviously since we're not buying them, the most amount of trouble for wholesalers?

    Here's my theory... DATA MINING!!

    I put my hands on around 5,000 machines a week. I travel up and down the I-95 corridor to most of the wholesalers here. And in every single case, the amount of data left on machines is around 99%. Sure, if you think about, 99% of that data is useless! But the 1% they do mine, is around the same percentage as mining GOLD. It is WORTH IT!!

    Why do I bring this subject up!? Because "YOU" as the dealers/service techs and Sales Reps have as much obligation to your client, as you do your country, to make sure your clients are AWARE OF the potential threats from Data Mining! No, you don't have to warn everyone, but keeping up with your clients who DO have "sensitive information" is VITALLY IMPORTANT!! So far to date, I have found and contacted places like: Banks, Law Enforcement Agencies, Judicial Systems, Tax Offices, Credit Card Processing agencies, and even here in the DC area, labels and letters I don't care to mention here.. ALL with complete data on their Hard Drives!

    "WE" as a profession MUST do a better job to make sure our clients are AWARE of the THREAT and to insist that ALL our clients do their part as "citizens" and as professional entities, to better protect their data! Period! There is no way this much data should be loosely transferring to those with the potential to do GREAT HARM with it.... Responsibility always starts with the people who have genuine concern with making sure things are done right! If that's you, please do your part. If you think this is too much to ask, then PLEASE, exit our profession so that others with professional standards and moral compasses can enter! THANKS!

  2. #2
    Service Manager 5,000+ Posts
    Are You Paying Attention!!?? - Why The Demand In Used Machines With China!??

    SalesServiceGuy's Avatar
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    Re: Are You Paying Attention!!?? - Why The Demand In Used Machines With China!??

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisban35 View Post
    I've been in this industry going on 30 years, and I have to say, there is a very peculiar event unfolding here. Let's go through the arguments first... China is sucking down a MASSIVE AMOUNT of our used inventory hitting the wholesalers... But WHY is the real question. Here's the excuses...

    They need the resources, they want certain types of components, they are helping the world with recycling, they made the components and they simply want to reuse them, etc...

    BUT, let's get real for a moment.... The "components" they supposedly want to retrieve, are in almost every single manufacturer out there. They cost on average about 3 to 4 times the money to "recycle" when they are one of the richest sources for the metals in them. Not to mention, the "process" to break them down, smelt, and then fabricate back into reusable components, is one heck of an undertaking.... So WHY does China go through the MASS AMOUNT of effort to take our machines!!?? So "WHY" are they only targeting the most EXPENSIVE/POPULAR machines and manufacturers? The ones in highest demand!? If they simply want "resources" why not go after the machines they can get the cheapest, and obviously since we're not buying them, the most amount of trouble for wholesalers?

    Here's my theory... DATA MINING!!

    I put my hands on around 5,000 machines a week. I travel up and down the I-95 corridor to most of the wholesalers here. And in every single case, the amount of data left on machines is around 99%. Sure, if you think about, 99% of that data is useless! But the 1% they do mine, is around the same percentage as mining GOLD. It is WORTH IT!!

    Why do I bring this subject up!? Because "YOU" as the dealers/service techs and Sales Reps have as much obligation to your client, as you do your country, to make sure your clients are AWARE OF the potential threats from Data Mining! No, you don't have to warn everyone, but keeping up with your clients who DO have "sensitive information" is VITALLY IMPORTANT!! So far to date, I have found and contacted places like: Banks, Law Enforcement Agencies, Judicial Systems, Tax Offices, Credit Card Processing agencies, and even here in the DC area, labels and letters I don't care to mention here.. ALL with complete data on their Hard Drives!

    "WE" as a profession MUST do a better job to make sure our clients are AWARE of the THREAT and to insist that ALL our clients do their part as "citizens" and as professional entities, to better protect their data! Period! There is no way this much data should be loosely transferring to those with the potential to do GREAT HARM with it.... Responsibility always starts with the people who have genuine concern with making sure things are done right! If that's you, please do your part. If you think this is too much to ask, then PLEASE, exit our profession so that others with professional standards and moral compasses can enter! THANKS!

    ... Chinese ports are massively blocked trying to export finished product. Used copiers are almost exclusively shipped overseas in containers. Container costs have gone up like 5-10x. I do not think your arguments and alarm makes much sense especially with copiers with built in improved security features.

  3. #3
    Senior Tech 100+ Posts mloudy's Avatar
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    Re: Are You Paying Attention!!?? - Why The Demand In Used Machines With China!??

    So they buy old copiers and say they will pick them up for free. Transfer them a couple of times around the country to the west coast and then put them on a container with a bunch of other copiers and ship them to China. I was under the impression that once they arrived in China they were rebuilt and put to use not torn down to be scrapped.

    They could take about a minute and pull the HDD. Think of how many HDD's they could fit into a shipping container. Is there any proof that these copiers never get put back into use in China? Perhaps they do after HDD's are swapped? Seems like a ton of labor and money to spend on the chance that they might find something of value stored on a HDD.

    It would be interesting to see if these buyers would still be willing to buy up used copiers if they didn't have the hard drives in them. I do know they offer to buy copier models that don't have hard drives standard. Maybe that is just part of the game so they can say, Oh no no no that isn't what we do with these copiers. Many of our traded in Sharps have Data Security installed. It would be insteresting if one of these buyers would pay the same price for machines with Data Security installed.

    I will say that most used copeirs I buy have not been purged of data. There are always things either left stored on the HDD or has company data left in the webpages. I buy machines that have either been a lease default or had a buyout done mid-lease based on the age of the equipment. So you may have a Konica dealer swapping out a 1 year old Sharp and they either do not know how to purge the Sharp or just don't care.

  4. #4
    Senior Tech 100+ Posts mloudy's Avatar
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    Re: Are You Paying Attention!!?? - Why The Demand In Used Machines With China!??

    After years of silence I began to receive status message emails from a Sharp copier that we had sold/serviced but had been replaced by another dealer. The emails still looked like they were coming from the customer as I assume their SMTP info was still in it but everything in the Subjest Line and body was in Chinese. So this copier either had it's language swithed to Chinese and was still in the US or it was in China and the language was switched and then plugged into a network. Not something that would happen if it was bought for scrap.

    The machine was removed from service in August of 2014. Emails resumed March of 2019 for short period of time. I guess it was on one of those slow boats to China.

  5. #5
    Senior Tech 100+ Posts
    Are You Paying Attention!!?? - Why The Demand In Used Machines With China!??

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    Re: Are You Paying Attention!!?? - Why The Demand In Used Machines With China!??

    Quote Originally Posted by SalesServiceGuy View Post
    ... Chinese ports are massively blocked trying to export finished product. Used copiers are almost exclusively shipped overseas in containers. Container costs have gone up like 5-10x. I do not think your arguments and alarm makes much sense especially with copiers with built in improved security features.
    Not sure which "built in security features" you're referring to, since it's well known by professionals like me, that do "true ITAD Services" that these "supposed" overwrites are no more than equal to the "free software" available for wiping machines. As for the argument you made, and I quote "Chinese ports are massively blocked, that wouldn't bode for your argument, but against it... That would be even more "suspect" as to why they would go to sooooo much efforts, even when ports are blocked, to obtain these machines.

    I live here in Washington DC, if you know anything about intelligence agencies, then you certainly know a simple "wipe" even a DOD wipe, level 7 with a machine that also wipes the areas HPA and DCO/ACS3 won't be enough to stop intelligence agencies from gathering the information... Just look at June 2007 edition of DSS and C&SM, overwriting is no longer an acceptable manner of data wiping. Sanitized media is obsolete! And that's because even back in 2007, they already knew about specialized software packages and Super computers being able to decode a scramble within less than an hour... The "only" true authorized method of securing classified information now is a degaussing followed by Hard Drive destruction. There's a "reason" why the government is going to these levels of destruction, and the commercial world had best learn, that soon they "ARE" the new sources for data mining...

  6. #6
    Senior Tech 100+ Posts
    Are You Paying Attention!!?? - Why The Demand In Used Machines With China!??

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    Re: Are You Paying Attention!!?? - Why The Demand In Used Machines With China!??

    Quote Originally Posted by mloudy View Post
    So they buy old copiers and say they will pick them up for free. Transfer them a couple of times around the country to the west coast and then put them on a container with a bunch of other copiers and ship them to China. I was under the impression that once they arrived in China they were rebuilt and put to use not torn down to be scrapped.

    They could take about a minute and pull the HDD. Think of how many HDD's they could fit into a shipping container. Is there any proof that these copiers never get put back into use in China? Perhaps they do after HDD's are swapped? Seems like a ton of labor and money to spend on the chance that they might find something of value stored on a HDD.

    It would be interesting to see if these buyers would still be willing to buy up used copiers if they didn't have the hard drives in them. I do know they offer to buy copier models that don't have hard drives standard. Maybe that is just part of the game so they can say, Oh no no no that isn't what we do with these copiers. Many of our traded in Sharps have Data Security installed. It would be interesting if one of these buyers would pay the same price for machines with Data Security installed.

    I will say that most used copiers I buy have not been purged of data. There are always things either left stored on the HDD or has company data left in the webpages. I buy machines that have either been a lease default or had a buyout done mid-lease based on the age of the equipment. So you may have a Konica dealer swapping out a 1 year old Sharp and they either do not know how to purge the Sharp or just don't care.
    Obviously there's no leaks about "what" they actually do with these machines, but to my best knowledge, talking with the managers/owners of wholesale firms across America, they bring the machines into port, they get moved to a strip down facility and then each piece takes a separate journey depending on what it is.

    My thoughts are, they are "data Farming" the information, and then using the rest of the machine to recoup as much of their investments as they can. Which also looks to "legitimize" their operation to data mine.

    You're not the only one who has received such emails. In fact, there are classified documents and unclassified documents within the government realm, stating what an employee/body member should do, if they receive such an email. The government takes this stuff very very seriously! It's the civilian world which is still in a lost state of ignorance on these matters. Which is why I'm writing this thread.

    More people need to become aware, and do so much faster. Our world is being infiltrated by an enemy from the inside out, and just like the lazy romans who let their empire fall because of their ignorance, we're that next cycle in history if we don't pull our heads out and continue to carelessly throw away what we have in this country.

  7. #7
    Aging Tech 5,000+ Posts
    Are You Paying Attention!!?? - Why The Demand In Used Machines With China!??

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    Re: Are You Paying Attention!!?? - Why The Demand In Used Machines With China!??

    Simple solution. Remove the HDD and give it to the customer when replacing the machine.

  8. #8
    The Wolf 1,000+ Posts mojorolla's Avatar
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    Re: Are You Paying Attention!!?? - Why The Demand In Used Machines With China!??

    Solar winds hack and the like, Chinese deals with tech companies (Google in particular), Facebook and cell phones and they are importing USED COPIERS to mine data....now that's funny. See the recent story comparing US cyber capabilities to those of China...?
    Copier HDD is going to bring about the downfall of our society....Romans....lol.


    Failing to plan is planning to fail!!!

  9. #9
    former propeller tester 250+ Posts
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    Re: Are You Paying Attention!!?? - Why The Demand In Used Machines With China!??

    Maybe china is middle manning them to somewhere else for a quick buck

  10. #10
    Service Manager 2,500+ Posts tsbservice's Avatar
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    Re: Are You Paying Attention!!?? - Why The Demand In Used Machines With China!??

    Quote Originally Posted by BLADE View Post
    Maybe china is middle manning them to somewhere else for a quick buck
    This...it's always money.
    A tree is known by its fruit, a man by his deeds. A good deed is never lost, he who sows courtesy, reaps friendship, and he who plants kindness gathers love.

    Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.

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