Canon???? Service????????? Ha

[10871087]

"if you dont want our business then we will take it elsewhere" To that our CFO replied "Good, go screw up someone elses company!

I have used that many times in the past and it always feels good.

[Penvy]

1st of all that comment about the pain in the ass is uncalled for.

But thats what you can expect from some of the service people we have come across.
As far as the common sense fix......well first read the service manual. AND then follow the the manual on the recommended repair or calibration.

The C1 does not work well with MAC even today. and as far back as a year ago the software did NOT work.

BUT..............We were promised From Canon in the contract it would........

It was a problem that even today Canon does NOT have a complete fix for...

the B&W we got was a Demo? BS it had OVER 1mil copies we found out. NOT the 11,000 that was in the contract specs
then it failed .....................and failed again........and was replaced.

Oh thats right they tried to put back the same copier

we were lied to........then they put in another one it failed. and the broke
it removing it.

IT WAS OVER 2 MO. BEFORE WE EVEN GOT ONE BACK
we had to use another copier...not theres

Well so far over 10 mo of "service" paid for but not fixed.

Hmmmm oh yes the C1 was not even printing on "canon" paper very well

Oh thats right "IT'S the PAPER"......how many times have we been told that.

then we went to a hammermill paper but the image was always skewed

and wrinkled.

Just on those 2 machines in the first year with the down time and over 30% waste on the C1 alone it was $38K in lost work to only have to "farm it out waiting for the software to get updated!!

READ other posts about the C1 and its service remarks. not good!

Now the "other copiers and wide format's" worked very well and had their service done and worked as defined in the service contract.

And we service hundreds of print shops and for over 28 years.

For the rest of you good peeps here I thank you for your help


AND BTW 11x17 by your comments about the 20% vs the 80%

Lets see hmmmmm OH thats right that = 100% of your customers.

So in your own words your Company wont service the other 80%

GREAT BUSINESS PRACTICE..............

YOUR company sold it YOU MAKE IT WORK!

THEN WORRY ABOUT HOW TO DEAL WITH CUSTOMERS THAT HAVE PROBLEMS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>AFTER YOU MAKE GOOD ON YOUR COMPANY'S CONTRACTS AND PROMISES!!!!!!!!!

Now ask yourself why did that customer become a "PAIN IN THE ASS"


Keep in mind that the bridge you burn today will be the one you will need to survive the next!

[cobiray]

I've seen these issues in our service department, and they seem to have been, at one time or another, caused by all of these issues.

When I started in the industry, our company had a "competitive compensation" system where by the only thing looked at was total calls, calls per day and PNET (in a nut shell, time accountability). Call backs and return calls were included in the total call count. If you could cram in 8-14 calls a day and had a high concentration of machines (read large accounts with a single location), you had it made. If you had a more spread out territory, you were S.O.L. So if you were able to fluff and buff machines, you were rewarded. If you took the time to clean machines, complete minimum call procedures and do anything more than fix the immediate problem you were, in essence, penalized for quality workmanship. So you had to choose if you wanted to shoot for the bonuses or have machines that were reliable.

In the last 5-7 years I have seen more of the lazy/unmotovated/untrained technicians. Preventative maintenances go undone until there is a problem, thus negating the "preventative" part. Techs are untrained or under trained and fumble with copier 101 issues. Almost all of the "new" technicians fall into this catagory. Don't they teach to clean everything first, when you have a PCQ problem? Alot of the techs are what I like to call "8 hour technicians." They don't care if it doesn't get done right the first time, there is no sense of urgancy when the call load goes up, WON'T work past quiting time, they genuinely don't care unless it prevents them from getting a pay check every 2 weeks. Seems to be a generational thing I've luckily missed out on. Most of these traits I've seen in the under 30 techs. That is a generalization, I understand, but it's my experience.

Ultimately the blame falls back on the company in most cases. If the technician is sloppy, lazy or untrained, then they need to do something about it. In our instance we have more junior techs (rookies) than senior (experienced) techs. In the last 9 years we've been running lean on total techs, which makes it hard to make sure everything is done right all the time. I try to drill the basics into them, but sometimes it's like talking to a wall. If the business can and wants to, changes should be made. Unfortunately, the path of least resistance or "better the devil you know" is the attitude with the descision makers.

As to the original issue, I understand your frustration. IF you were paying maintenance and a lease to a business, you should have had a loaner machine to get you through. We don't handle our own leasing internally, but we have a loaner policy for any customer with a maintenance agreement. IF you were paying them directly a lease and maintenance payment but had no machine, you have every right to not pay in my opinion. Often if you are paying a lease to a leasing company, your servicing agent has no authority to be able to credit, let you not pay or whatever. Ultimately you need to look at the actual service contract, go through the fine print and find out exactly what you "signed for" not what was promised. Sales persons are people looking to sell. They will tell you yes, no matter what they are trying to sell. If the contract has a guarentee as far as up time or loaner machines, then you need to call them on it. If they are not keeping up the contract, you have reasonable grounds to get out of it. Unfortunately this will involve an amount of litigation (which I personally detest).

I know this post has turned into it's own rant, but I hope it helps somewhat. Hopefully you will at least get that the industry is not all trying to rip you off. There are still some "good guys" out there.

[wingnut132]

Penvy, one question, have you contacted Canon directly in New York? I have been asked by Canon directly in the past to go out and look and problem machines that are in my area and see if I could do anything for the customer, or if we needed to get a Canon Rep out to them. In my many years of servicing Canon equipment, they have ALWAYS taken care of the customer, even if it meant replacing the problem machine with a New machine, and yes I have seen it happen.

[ahmedwali]

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[mjarbar]

Penvy - no doubt your legal dept. is 'talking' to Canon about refunds etc.

It is obvious from the posts that the machines you were sold were not fit for the purpose intended and Canon have dropped the ball in getting your problem sorted.

As to the other posts I would like to say that our company policy is that - on the whole - it doesn't matter about the size of the customer or how many copies they do. It is the principle that they have a machine of ours and we have a responsibilty to ensure that it works to spec. As I said before it could be by training the customer, preventative maintenance or call outs.

As to the other comments on here about training, comitment etc. I have to agree, you only have to look on other posts to see that often you can't tell the difference between the end user and a tech.

I think there are 2 things that are most important, they are company policy- the company has to take the view that money is not everything, go that extra bit and soon word will get round that the company cares and more people will go to you for their business, that marketing 101.

The other is proper training as others have said, there is no other altenative. If you get the proper training then you have access to the service manuals, parts catalogues and more often than not the dealers own service websites.

At the end of the day choosing a copier company is like anything else, you have to shop around and also ask to speak to other customers of the intended company, in this industry this is more important than ever as you will be probablly stuck with them for 3-5 years if it goes wrong!

[mmru4real]

Penvy - no doubt your legal dept. is 'talking' to Canon about refunds etc.

It is obvious from the posts that the machines you were sold were not fit for the purpose intended and Canon have dropped the ball in getting your problem sorted.

As to the other posts I would like to say that our company policy is that - on the whole - it doesn't matter about the size of the customer or how many copies they do. It is the principle that they have a machine of ours and we have a responsibilty to ensure that it works to spec. As I said before it could be by training the customer, preventative maintenance or call outs.

As to the other comments on here about training, comitment etc. I have to agree, you only have to look on other posts to see that often you can't tell the difference between the end user and a tech.

I think there are 2 things that are most important, they are company policy- the company has to take the view that money is not everything, go that extra bit and soon word will get round that the company cares and more people will go to you for their business, that marketing 101.

The other is proper training as others have said, there is no other altenative. If you get the proper training then you have access to the service manuals, parts catalogues and more often than not the dealers own service websites.

At the end of the day choosing a copier company is like anything else, you have to shop around and also ask to speak to other customers of the intended company, in this industry this is more important than ever as you will be probablly stuck with them for 3-5 years if it goes wrong!

Guys I am sorry if I am entering this a little late, I actually feel bad for Penvy, Penvy are you a print shop? I am now a dealer principle and before this I was a service Manager for 10 years. I can definitely understand his anger, but I don't think it should be with just Canon as much as the ASP for Canon, trust me I am not defending Canon, I am a Sharp, Xerox and HP dealer. This could have happened from any line and any dealer who puts the almighty dollar above the customer. I am a relative new dealer, but have the majority of my customers not because we gave them a good deal, but because of my service reputation which is now carrying over to my companies reputation. Sometimes if a company does a little research before they buy, like mjarbar stated it saves everyone in the long run. I am a firm believer in cheaper is not better and ends up usually causing headaches. I also believe that GOOD is not Cheap and cheap is not good. I also feel that coming from the service end, I pay very close detail to the sales end, before we ship a machine, I personally call each customer and thank them for the business and go over their needs and expectations, so I can make sure the machine will fit their needs. I would rather turn down the business, if the machine is not going to do the job for the customer, than to tarnish my, or my companies reputation because a Sales Rep did not do the due diligence by the customer. I also feel techs need to do whatever it takes, to take care of a customer, I sometimes even go in the field to troubleshoot, just in case a tech is missing something. Finally, I am almost finished with the cliche's guys. IT is our reponsibility to take care of the customer, they are the ones that pay our paychecks, not the company you work for!!!! And if you are not taking good care of the customer then somebody else will, ie by you losing that customer.
Michael Murphy
Owner
Keystone Business Systems

[10871087]

Penvy,

The whole thing sound like a nightmare, call a lawyer, they can send a few letters off for you and you can probably negotiate a way out of your agreement with Canon and the leasing company. It is probably the best thing for everyone involved.

[Penvy]

Thanks guys,
Were not the "pain in the ass "customers

I have a service company, I train tech's.
If I did what canon did to a customer.....
That customer should be pissed off and NOT pay .

But again Canon is a large Company and could have fixed this by
Not bsing us and passing the buck from sales to service to the leasing
and so on.
The simple problem is

the Equipment sold did not work as contracted and the time/labor/supply
lost AND the customer job lost was hard to recover from.

Please keep in mind I have been in this business for 28 yrs+
on the service side.

Lawyers will not help when the damage is done.
It was to the point of "remove it or replace it"

But we told canon we would stick it out with them
That comes from my side of the service end as I would want a customer to stick with me.

[10871087]

Please keep in mind I have been in this business for 28 yrs+ on the service side.

I may have missed it in an earlier post but what type of business are you in? It might help us get a better understanding of your situation.

[Penvy]

Part of the business is a "on demand digital print shop" thus the C1 and b&w high speed.
We use all Macs,the latest software for graphics and the dual op system with windows and lepoard.
and thats where canon really failed.........we were A test bed with this C1

Canon should have had this in their R&D long before it hit the streets with the software problems........even the senior software tech shook his head in
frustration with the only software made available to him to get it close to pantone of cyk,rgb........and even the way it spools to the printer with the server. Or how the C1 even show the page setup.

Canon could and should have come back to us and said "until we get it right
we should not charge you for what we promised and contracted"

well of course their bean counters would not have considered that

In less that 1 year Canon changed out the color with the C1 and the B&w 3x.........thats right in less than 1 year.

that really hurt the business and we showed Canon how much it cost us
in lost business........and the waste of skids of paper ,supply's and click charges + DOWN TIME!!!!!!!!

SO were ...........the "PAIN THE ASS "

We I have had enough of this . I dont think I could make it more clear on what has happened.
But being a service tech on the other side We wanted to give them every chance to make it right and they ignored the fact that their equipment
was not producing the work put on it.

[CanonHPTech]

OK, I will not sit and defend myself or any company for that matter but I do want to add my 2 meter clicks to this discussion. I've worked on many other products, but now primarly work on Canon, all day, everyday. They make great products and some that only work good in certain enviorments. 9 out of 10 IR 4570's I see that customers hate are placed in areas/enviorments they should not have been. Most customers pass their decision on the cost versus the 5000 series and don't mind sparing the couple of ppm of 55ppm versus 45ppm. I believe the 4570 is even rated differently as far as volume than the 2270/3570's which is WRONG. Same exact machine. Most customers suffer with this series of machine due to fact that it can not be run in a humid enviorment. These machines do not run moist paper through the duplex area. Also, Drums and Films do not last as long as they should (versus the other IR 3300 series). Also, if you are using this as a walk-up machine, forget it. These machines do not take abuse well. Try a IR 5050 or 5055 instead.

As far as the ImagePress C1 goes- well I do not work on these, but I work on its ugly stepbrother the IR C6800 series. Very similar model. From what I hear, these are supposed to be replacing the CLC 4000/5000 series, but they do not compare. Looking in from the outside, I think Canon needs to close the gap between the IR 5180 series and the ImagePress V series, and a machine that is based on one of the hardest to maintain/keep running between calls machine (C6800), is not the answer.

Also, please specify if you are refering to Canon Business Solutions or Canon USA. Different companies with the same owners.

I am what my company considers a junior tech (only 3 years on Canon products, 10 years in the industry), but I fix 'em all. Canon does not make too much that I haven't fixed. Every service company has older, slower, or lazy techs. Techs that fix only the issue at hand, are at home by 3:30pm, and won't put a $3 roller in a machine that needs it. I don't agree with it, but this job is not for everyone, and it attracts some who are less than motivated to excel or work beyond 9-5. I am different. I came in on the ground floor, but I want to be the President. If I see a customer more than once in a month, than a red flag goes up. If I have to go above and over my service manager to visit this customer to PM or just keep happy, I am going to do it. Also, the major difference between a good tech and a tech, is listening. Most techs feel they know everything already and beside the fact that they don't like to learn new things/machines, they do not listen to what a customer is actually trying to say. I am usually the 2nd or 3rd guy into an account to find that the machine did not need new parts but that the customer just had to show me EXACTLY what was not working or not working per their opinion.

Print shops are a tough breed, however, make the most money (most of the time) for our companies. I believe there should be certain techs should be assigned to print shops to specialize (companies hate that word) in taking care of the actual machine but also the print shops specific issues/quality concerns. Sending a fax tech or even a tech that works on IR 4570's series all day into work on a IR 105/7105 at a print shop is not a good idea. Some ones going to get hurt pockets or hurt feelings or both.

Sounds like you have the wrong machines for the job. Its a budget versus how much you get for the money issue. Also, Canon's not the only game in town. Kick some tires, actually listen to that young nervous salesman who visits once a week. If he's hungry he'll/she'll find a way to get you out of your contract. Competition in this field is good for customer.

No hard feelings. Some of us work for GM some of us work for Toyota, some work for Gesetner some of us work for Xerox some of us are the bad guys but we all thing we are on the right team. Happy Holidays to all. Keep us posted how you make out.