Gay Marriage

[Shadow1]

Re: Gay Marriage

We have a belief here that you people there in the WESTERN world, have too much freedom. It is good to enjoy freedom! But the parameters of these human freedom must be clearly defined; the upper & lower limits of freedom.

Not sure if I agree with you on this one or not. I believe you should have as much freedom as you want, so long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else's freedom, and you are accountable for the consequences of your decisions.

If you want to live a homosexual lifestyle that's between you and God, you should be free to do so according to the above terms. Don't expect special treatment for it.

You should be free to express your opinion that this is how you were meant to be, acknowledging it is your your opinion and not everyone will agree with you, and accepting that there are people who have differing opinions.

However, I should also be free to express my opinion that I believe your lifestyle is decidedly unbiblical, morally wrong, and even flies in the face of Darwinism (if you believe in that sort of thing, and I don't). I also accept there are those who will not agree with my opinion. I will note here that I have several Gay friends and relatives, they know my opinion, but they also know I accept them as friends despite my disagreement with their lifestyle. We have interesting discussions about it and remain friends.

Where I do get highly disturbed is when some homosexual activist believes he/she/it has the right to forcibly alter over 6000 years of biblical teachings. Marriage is an institution of the church, not of the government, and to think that you can undermine the teachings of a church you have no desire to be part of simply to feel justified in your immoral lifestyle stretches beyond the limits of freedom. What about the freedom of the church?

If you want to shack up with your "domestic partner" go for it. Call it whatever you want, but don't call it a marriage. It's not.

And by the same token, it's not okay for homosexuals to be stoned to death. Stoning was also the biblical penalty for adultery, and Jesus himself faced down a mob intent on killing an adulterous woman - He never spoke a word to the mob, and we can only imagine what he scribbled in the sand, but even the woman was told to go in peace and sin no more.

[nmfaxman]

Re: Gay Marriage

"I am all for gay marriage as long as both girls are hot and I can watch."

Gallagher

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

Re: Gay Marriage

Jimbo1, you were right when you said, 'Most people here have no need for it too, You get verbally abused if you act as though you don't support it'. I can see already a certain Hemlock has called me sonofabitch! But I will not 'revenge' the insult ,otherwise it will derail us from the real issue at hand. Instead as Jesus said, I will turn for him the other cheek too, to slap! I have liked the analysis made by Shadow1, it was to the point. As for my case, I am only high-lighting the beliefs & uncompromising position of the citizens of our country to that malaise. And that position is, '' You are free to do your thing, (by whatever name you call it) in PRIVATE, in the privacy of your bedroom or house, BUT WE SHALL NEVER EVER LEGALIZE IT, come rain or sunshine. Full stop! And they, and their agitators have got this message loud and clear. It is an unnatural act!

[Hemlock]

Re: Gay Marriage

Bible = really old version of Harry Potter.

[mojorolla]

Re: Gay Marriage

Jesus was a bachelor and wives were generally treated as possessions or servants or slaves in the Bible so the religious argument is pretty weak.

I have to laugh at this entire thing. Marriage has become ANYTHING but sacred. Over half of all marriages end in divorce; how "sacred" can it be? It has nothing to do with religion, it is simply a rally cry for all the religion nuts; like abortion. It is not the governments job to legislate morality! Looking to the Bible for proof of anything is ridiculous.

Hemlock, I believe Harry Potter makes more sense than the Bible.

[Gift]

Re: Gay Marriage

If you want to live a homosexual lifestyle that's between you and God

...in case you believe in some kind of God(s). A so called "marriage" isn't only a christian/biblic invention (a believer might beg to differ - I can understand that^^). Still, there is actually no empiric proof if a marriage was invented by some of the major religions, that's why there are different understandings about this term these days. All in all there is nothing out there holding a copyright over this term, that's why it's pointless to try finding out who was the inventor of the marriage. Even agnostic/atheist people are getting married to promise and celebrate their love/boundary - not in front of god but in front of each other. I don't care if people are gay or religious or both as long as they don't try breaking my balls beeing to extroverted - but I don't expect that every peaceful-living human being is forced to maintain a secret about their private life/sexual orientation/religion. I'm happy not beeing gay nor religious since I have to deal with enough dicks and chit-chat in my job

"I am all for gay marriage as long as both girls are hot and I can watch."

OK, that's a valid exception here

[nmfaxman]

Re: Gay Marriage, it is now a comic book

Marvel Comics plans wedding for gay hero Northstar - Celebrity Circuit - CBS News

http://www.toplessrobot.com/2012/05/everybody_in_comics_is_catching_the_gays.php

My guess is Northstar was too fast at everything for women, if you know what I mean.

"The biggest hypocrites are sitting in the front row." My Dad

[Shadow1]

Re: Gay Marriage

Bible = really old version of Harry Potter.

"When you eliminate the impossible whatever is left, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." Sherlock Holmes (Sir Arthur Conan Doyle)
Please try to prove the Bible wrong. Many have tried - all have failed, and many have joined the ranks of the believers. Any true Christian would welcome a skeptic. Start your studies with Paul's experience on the road to Damascus.

Jesus was a bachelor and wives were generally treated as possessions or servants or slaves in the Bible so the religious argument is pretty weak.

Then you have not read the passages commanding the husband to love his wife as his own flesh. Yes, male and female have their roles in a relationship, but they are equals. They are to discuss things and make decisions together, the only caveat is there must be a tie-breaker, and in such cases the husband prevails. Read Song of Soloman and Proverbs 31.

I have to laugh at this entire thing. Marriage has become ANYTHING but sacred. Over half of all marriages end in divorce; how "sacred" can it be? It has nothing to do with religion, it is simply a rally cry for all the religion nuts; like abortion. It is not the governments job to legislate morality! Looking to the Bible for proof of anything is ridiculous.

Hemlock, I believe Harry Potter makes more sense than the Bible.

What Marriage is and how people treat it are completely different things. Most people have a very corrupted idea of marriage thanks to a truckload of things like gay marriage.

The traditional relationship was established as a means to provide a stable nurturing environment to raise a family, and to this day virtually every study shows children raised in the traditional "one man one woman committed relationship" definition of a family do better when faced with any challenge the modern world presents. That's not to say there aren't exceptions, or that children can't do well in single parent situations and oddball relationships, just that they have a better chance.

Why exactly do you think the government has no business legislating morality? That is exactly what they do - Why is it I can't just stab some random stranger in the street? Or yell "fire" in a crowded theater? Or pick through some lady's purse while sitting next to her at the bus stop? Because it's illegal... or because it's wrong?

Laws and legal systems are just quantified and defined reflections of that particular nation's morality, or immorality - Rome fell from within...

By the way there are many logical as well as moral reasons to support traditional marriage, just as there are to ban abortion. I would be happy to debate either, but you may want to do a little research on me before you decide to tangle. Fair warning.

...in case you believe in some kind of God(s). A so called "marriage" isn't only a christian/biblic invention (a believer might beg to differ - I can understand that^^). Still, there is actually no empiric proof if a marriage was invented by some of the major religions, that's why there are different understandings about this term these days.

Except we find evidence that the concept of marriage existed before written records... and what other than religion ruled people's lives back then? I never claimed marriage is the creation of Christians - that would be very foolish of me, since it is clearly inscribed in the Jewish Torah which make up the first 5 books of the Christian Old Testament. The tradition of marriage in one form or another is also entrenched in the scriptures of every major religion.

No - you never will find the "author of marriage" other than God (and you can state that with a big "G" or little "g" as you choose) but it is clearly the province of religion. If you read the 1st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution very carefully, and also read The Federalist Papers justifying the language and provisions of our constitution you would know the government here in the United States (sorry rest of the world, I can only speak for "home") has no business even debating the subject.

To wit: The 1st Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." when taken in proper context this simply means that the U.S. government cannot create a state religion as was the case in Great Britain

"...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." even if you ignore or purposely misinterpret the first part the second is crystal clear - Marriage is a religious tradition, and certainly predates this country. The government has no authority to meddle in religion.

[mojorolla]

Re: Gay Marriage

Religion,or laws for that matter, do not keep people from stabbing others at the bus stop, morality does. Even with laws in place, bus stop stabbings still happen. And morality does not come from the government or religion, it comes from people. How moral were the Crusades?
As to the treatment of wives, you must be reading the new testament. The story of Adam and Eve in the Old Testament states that God created Adam from the dust. God wanted to make a "helper" for Adam so he marched all the animals in front of Adam looking for a mate. Ultimately, Eve was created from Adams rib. I guess it took God a minute to figure out a goat would not be a good "helper". "Thy desire shall be to thy husband. and he shall rule over thee". Women could not testify in court or even talk to strangers. So lets move on to multiple wives: Esau had 3, Jacob had 2. Hell Solomon had "700 wives of royal birth". So 3 to 700 wives is OK, but marrying a dude is frowned upon...got it. Concubines, basically sex slaves, are found all over the Bible. David, Solomon, and Gideon all kept concubines. I do not see a whole lot of morality here. The tenth commandment states: Thou shall not covet thy neighbor house, wife, manservant,ox etc....the wife is treated as a possession just as the ox or house, and marriage is sacred!?

As for proving the Bible wrong, all you have to do is read it. The major stories; the great flood, a martyr sacrificing himself, etc are all found in older texts which predate the Bible by thousands of years. They just changed the names to suit their agenda.
Perhaps I just find it hard to believe that otherwise intelligent people can dumb themselves down to buy this religious bullshit.

[Gift]

Re: Gay Marriage

Except we find evidence that the concept of marriage existed before written records... and what other than religion ruled people's lives back then? I never claimed marriage is the creation of Christians - that would be very foolish of me, since it is clearly inscribed in the Jewish Torah which make up the first 5 books of the Christian Old Testament. The tradition of marriage in one form or another is also entrenched in the scriptures of every major religion.

I just tried to say that these aspects actually doesn't matter. Many traditions might or might not based of religious history/roots, even celebrating your own birthday. Still I think there is no need to expect people to be believers in order to celebrate or modify traditions.

[Hemlock]

Re: Gay Marriage

+1 to mojorolla.

[Shadow1]

Re: Gay Marriage

Religion,or laws for that matter, do not keep people from stabbing others at the bus stop, morality does. Even with laws in place, bus stop stabbings still happen. And morality does not come from the government or religion, it comes from people. How moral were the Crusades?

Laws are an expression of moral values be they good or immoral - nobody ever said they wouldn't be broken.

Morality was not invented by man, who by nature lives to serve himself - Look at all the ijits in Washington D.C. and I find this to be pretty self-evident. No - Morality was defined by God, most everyone finds pieces of it, but very few people embrace all of it, and those who do are looked upon with scorn by our modern world. I'll rephrase my previous statement: What morality is and what people do with it are completely different.

You're also trying to twist the teachings of the Bible - just because a story is there doesn't mean even God's most favored people were always good upstanding citizens. They're shown as they were, warts and all. The Bible is full of bad examples - remember the story of Bathsheba? Killing a man so you can take his wife - and David was a big biblical character...

The Bible was put together out of those older texts - of course you can find other examples of those stories, and take it literally or take it figuratively you have no empirical evidence that any of it is flat out wrong. I guess it depends on if you believe in miracles or an extraordinary series of scientifically explainable coincidences, but I've seen too much weird crap going on just inside a copy machine to think we are anywhere near understanding all the mysteries of the universe.

I just tried to say that these aspects actually doesn't matter. Many traditions might or might not based of religious history/roots, even celebrating your own birthday. Still I think there is no need to expect people to be believers in order to celebrate or modify traditions.

You are welcome to follow any traditions you wish, as are you free to modify those traditions in your use of them. You are not free to expect members of the order responsible for those traditions to accommodate your misuse. If you wish to have a marriage-like ceremony with your homosexual partner have at it. Do not expect a Christian church to take part in it, and don't expect anybody else to recognize you as "married." To do so constitutes theft, as same sex relationships are specifically prohibited as part of Marriage.

[Gift]

Re: Gay Marriage

You are welcome to follow any traditions you wish, as are you free to modify those traditions in your use of them.

that's a matter of course

If you wish to have a marriage-like ceremony with your homosexual partner have at it. Do not expect a Christian church to take part in it, and don't expect anybody else to recognize you as "married."

I'm not a butt pirate but I agree that this would be inappropriate. I actually think it's pathetic if a homesexual being is commited to a religion that actually contempts homosexuality. Still, in many countries a marriage comes with special, non-religious-related, privileges for married couples. A proper and modern seperation between goverments and religions (legal-wise) should either not mess with private/religiously driven decisions at all OR make these rights available for all sorts of marriages to avoid any traces of social exclusion.

[Shadow1]

Re: Gay Marriage

Still, in many countries a marriage comes with special, non-religious-related, privileges for married couples. A proper and modern seperation between goverments and religions (legal-wise) should either not mess with private/religiously driven decisions at all OR make these rights available for all sorts of marriages to avoid any traces of social exclusion.

And a homosexual couple can go into any lawyer's office and sign documents granting eachother those privileges (at least the personal ones), and in the U.S. there's actually benefits for doing this and not getting married. (income tax rates for example)

Government needs to stay out of places it doesn't belong, like churches and people's bedrooms. Period.

[Hemlock]

Re: Gay Marriage

Churches would do well to stay out of people's bedrooms also.