Where the rubber meets the road.

[fixthecopier]

Re: Where the rubber meets the road.

I am just going by what people say and do. I don't know the religion of any of the CEO's, traders, or Bankers. What I do know is their philosophy is terrible.

I think you have asserted that morals come from religious beliefs, and that life has no meaning to atheist. My question is, if you knew someone for years and religion was never discussed, would you be able to tell if this person had morals or if life had meaning to him. My assertion is that you could not tell if this person was religious unless the person just told you.

If you just go by what people say and do, then labels like "atheist" and "theist" have no meaning. Live and let live.


I also noticed you pulled a quote from Leviticus to show the bible as a source for morals. I guess you chose to ignore the other stuff in that book that would land you in prison if you did them today. That would seem to be the "cherry picking" of biblical philosophy.

[Darren King]

Re: Where the rubber meets the road.

Do you have any evidence of this other than your opinion?[/FONT]

Organized religion is all about controling poor people. So, you write a book of laws that tell people what to do and not do. Then you tell them that God says to give 10% of your money to the church which keeps them poor and easy to control. Not quite as bad as a government, but, the same idea.

[Chameleon]

Re: Where the rubber meets the road.

I think you have asserted that morals come from religious beliefs

I believe that. It seems to me if it weren't for some divine inspiration people would act no different than animals. But we have language. And we put on clothes. And we farmed the land. And we made laws. I find it hard to believe people would have anything more than instincts for survival if we evolved.

and that life has no meaning to atheist

In the overall scheme of things, does it matter if someone destroys a rock? Probably not. What if one day enough people get together and decide to make a law against destroying rocks. Does it really matter if a rock gets destroyed now or is it merely against a law some man madeup?
Seems to me if there is no God and we evolved, what happens to a rock isn't actually any different than what happens to a pile of carbon and water that talks.

If you just go by what people say and do, then labels like "atheist" and "theist" have no meaning. Live and let live.

That makes sense. Which is kinda what I meant when I said Jerry is responsable for what Jerry did,

I also noticed you pulled a quote from Leviticus to show the bible as a source for morals. I guess you chose to ignore the other stuff in that book that would land you in prison if you did them today. That would seem to be the "cherry picking" of biblical philosophy.

Not at all. Jesus said "don't put new wine in old wineskins" reguarding some of the older laws. He did a rewrite of the laws when many times he said "it is written ___, But I say ___" or "it has been said ___, But I say ___".

[Chameleon]

Re: Where the rubber meets the road.

Organized religion is all about controling poor people. So, you write a book of laws that tell people what to do and not do. Then you tell them that God says to give 10% of your money to the church which keeps them poor and easy to control. Not quite as bad as a government, but, the same idea.

I think you're
right, many of the religions in the world probably are nothing more than a way
to control people. I find it hard to believe about the Bible though. Most of the laws are to benefit people and keep them from getting sick. It's hard
to believe not long after language was invented Moses wrote "In the
Beginning..." when for all anyone knew back then was the universe was infinite.
Later he came up with all these laws, some of which a lot of people find
amusing, but some of are really incredible. Besides the 10 commandments, there
are laws about keeping clean. Sure it may be obvious to not touch dead things or
your poo, but where to bury your poo, burning contaminated clothes, wash
places where food is prepared, bury dead people, Quarantine sick people.
Supposedly these people just came out of the caves so if you think any of that
seems obvious or figured out by trial and error it is only because we live in
the 21st century. Prior to Pasteur "germs" were only a theory. Check out
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Nightingale]Florence
Nightingale and the sanitary conditions of hospitals of her
day.

Moses mentioned behemoths (dinosaurs). Job mentions springs of the
sea, discovered in 1900's. Jesus mentioned "until the heavens and earth pass
away". People of his day thought the earth was infinite. Jesus said "God...hath
made man from one blood." Doctors still thought black, white, asian and indians
all had different blood as recently as the early 1900's. Not to mention the
hundreds of prophecies. It seems to me there was some divine inspiration given to the men as they wrote.

[mrwho]

Re: Where the rubber meets the road.

I agree what the Muslims did was bad. I am not a Muslim and that is not my philosophy.

I agree what the Cathilocs did was bad. I am not a Catholic.

You found a very smart way of dodging bullets there - would you please tell us what your faith is and what specific version of the bible you follow so we can aim more precisely?

[fixthecopier]

Re: Where the rubber meets the road.

Sorry Chameleon, I should have known better to get in this one. You seem to want to have a discussion about philosophy, except for your own. I ask a very simple and direct question, and the first time you went to Hitler and the second time you went to a pile of rocks. Your assertions about atheist and morals are useless because you refuse to be pinned down. You seem to bob and weave when ask.


What do you believe motivates the godless Bill Gates, a well known atheist, to pledge half of all of his fortune. He and his wife are currently spending their golden years spending their money to help eliminate diseases in third world countries. With life having no meaning, one would think he could spend his fortune and what little remains of his life on himself and just having a good time, instead of helping give life to humans he has never met. You would think he would spend his money building giant buildings around the planet that would be places where other atheist could come and worship the way he lives, and maybe put a symbol on these buildings that would represent him, like a giant "A", and his followers could walk around with an "A" on a chain around their neck....Oh wait, that has been done to death.

[Chameleon]

Re: Where the rubber meets the road.

When I brought this topic up everyone said pedophiles were wrong, people pointed out how moral they were, and cited examples of good atheists. I use the same logic regarding the crusades and catholics, suddenly its "dodging a bullet"? I want to have a discussion about the origin or right and wrong, you're taking this too personal.
There's nothing wrong with using rocks to illustrate a point about philosophy. As far as your question I don't think your premise is correct, just about everyone religious or not has morals and assigns meaning to their life, nobody wants to die. It's what those morals and meaning is based on that becomes obvious the more you talk.
I asked you several times whether you believed the hieroglyphics could be produced by natural causes and you never answered.
You just made the point labels of theist or atheist were useless, then proceed to label Gates as an atheist. Are those labels useless or not? And what was the point of bringing him up? I never said ALL atheiSTS were bad, I said atheiSM is a bad philosophy for life. For example, Stalin, who I won't "label", but he sure did have a bad philosophy and do some evil things. On his death bed he was screaming about the wolves coming for him. I imagine everybody here agrees he was bad, so he isn't worth discussing. Everyone agree Gates is a generous guy, so he is kinda moot too. Unless, I should point out he has a good philosophy. "If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 1 john 3:17". You might "label" Gates as an atheist but he seems to love God and has the philosohy of a theist. My philosophy is I believe in Jesus.

[mrwho]

Re: Where the rubber meets the road.

When I brought this topic up everyone said pedophiles were wrong, people pointed out how moral they were, and cited examples of good atheists. I use the same logic regarding the crusades and catholics, suddenly its "dodging a bullet"?

When you put all atheists on the same bag (good or bad, moral or amoral), I also place all theists on the same bag to point out the bad thing religion does. Now you point out that's not your religion, hence I'm asking you what is the particular faith you're following, so we can better understand your point of view.

I want to have a discussion about the origin or right and wrong, you're taking this too personal.

I tend to take it personal when someone tries to convince me fairy tales are real. That's all.

just about everyone religious or not has morals and assigns meaning to their life, nobody wants to die.

But, according to your earlier posts, even those non-religious people secretly believe in some kind of deity just because they think their life is meaningful.

It's what those morals and meaning is based on that becomes obvious the more you talk.

What did I say that makes it obvious?

I asked you several times whether you believed the hieroglyphics could be produced by natural causes and you never answered.

Up until now I never noticed any question about hieroglyphs - my bad. When reading this at work I tend to fast read long posts and sometimes I miss otherwise important things. About hyeroglyphs - they're a form of writing, so they're not caused by natural causes. If we're talking about a single hyeroglyph/letter or maybe two, then by chance they could appear by natural causes - but not a wall full of them giving out an intelligible sentence.

"If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 1 john 3:17". You might "label" Gates as an atheist but he seems to love God and has the philosohy of a theist.

So, even though Bill Gates is an atheist, if he's doing any good he must be a theist, because he couldn't be a good person otherwise? Following that thought, if a theist person does bad deeds, we could automatically classify that person as an atheist... right?

[rthonpm]

Re: Where the rubber meets the road.

Chameleon:

You seem to be confusing morality and ethics, two very different things. You've also completely, or conveniently, omitted about 350 years worth of sociological and moral philosophy (Thomas Hobbes, Benedict Spinoza, John Locke, Immanuel Kant, Albert Camus, just to name a few) from the Social Contract of the Enlightenment to the more modern analytical and existentialist (a VERY loaded and misunderstood term so bear with me on my usage of it) thinkers.

The basic issue with your argument is that you are already arguing from a set point of view without giving the same kind of diligence in understanding the opposing side of the argument as you've put into your own faith. This gives your analogies a slightly hollow tone, and leads to an oversimplified debate of 'only Christians can be moral'. Morality is as much the culture one is a part of as it is anything else.

The Social philosophers, we'll use Hobbes as an example, state the case that what gives humans their sense of morality is society. In the 'state of nature' we follow the basic tenets that you've espoused for true atheists: that whatever happens, happens. But that's self defeating the philosophers tell us, because we'll spend all of our time trying to keep from getting killed. By banding together under a common framework and all giving up something of ourselves, we actually work to our own benefit. We all protect each other from killing each other, and when someone breaks the common rules we've set up, we have a mechanism to isolate them from the greater society.

The analytical philosophers tell us that morals and ethics are something that comes with the faculty of sentience. Animals act on impulses, but human beings have a higher sense: reasoning. Any reasoning, or rational, being no matter where they're from or what form they take are going to follow a basic framework. Part of that framework is the development of a moral code. With that moral code coming from rational thought, rather than an external source, it is a human construct. That's not to say though that God doesn't, or couldn't exist. Since the existence of a supreme being can't be evaluated on a rational level, but only considered, then at most God could be said to exist but have little bearing to a rational being limited perception based on the factors of time and space, since God would be infinite. With that, religion can be looked at as a reflection of human morality and justified by means of its moral worth, rather than the truth of any supernatural entity.

The late 19th and 20th centuries gave us a lot of philosophy based on the idea of taking God out of the equation entirely. Nietzsche said 'God is dead', but meant God in the sense of the influence of religion as a dominant force in human society. Other thinkers took it a step further and declared outright that God is nothing but a concept of men, and our actions (war, racism, etc) prove it since if there was such an all powerful entity, how could we not fall over ourselves to obey it? With God gone though, we've gotten back to the thorny idea of were morality comes from... If there is only the order that we put to the world, then what role does morality play? Is murder, or any other crime 'wrong'? This brings a very stark choice: either the complete abandoning of any kind of morality, or the challenge to be moral beings in a 'state of nature' (to go back to Hobbes). If anything then, the morality of an atheist is stronger than that of a religious man, since the religious man is moral because of the judgement of a higher power, while the moral atheist's morality is based solely on human principles.

All of that said, it's a very simplified version of a lot of people's thinking mashed together, but it should try and give you a little something to chew on. Overall, I find a lot of these debates interesting, but there comes a point where just taking a hot button issue like paedophilia and using it to make a larger point just loses any impact in the stretching of the reasoning to accommodate a completely different argument (in this case, the grounding of morality on religious principles).

For my own view: I'm just a person. There may be a God, there may not be a God. I can't say for sure either way. I just try to live the best I know how.

[Darren King]

Re: Where the rubber meets the road.

[QUOTE=mrwho;353406

I tend to take it personal when someone tries to convince me fairy tales are real. That's all.


[/QUOTE]

Some people, me included, consider evolution a fairy tale. I know you weren't promoting evolution in this post, however, I just thought I would mention that both theories, creation and evolution, are kinda hard to believe. lol. In fact, evolution is less believable in my opinion.

[mrwho]

Re: Where the rubber meets the road.

Some people, me included, consider evolution a fairy tale. I know you weren't promoting evolution in this post, however, I just thought I would mention that both theories, creation and evolution, are kinda hard to believe. lol. In fact, evolution is less believable in my opinion.

As I said, I have no problem with other people's beliefs. But when someone comes campaigning with something I feel absurd (no offense to those who believe), then I feel I should speak up my mind. I don't want to "convert" anyone to "my side", as I have no illusions on whether I ever have the chance. People believe what they want to believe.

[fixthecopier]

Re: Where the rubber meets the road.

Chameleon, since you have stated to be a follower of Jesus, please explain this to me, and this is a serious question that I can't comprehend.Explain how Jesus being nailed to a cross saves people from eternal damnation. To a nonbeliever like myself, that story comes across as ... There is this really powerful being that is pissed at everyone around him, and rather that just getting over himself, he sends his son to them knowing he will be tortured and killed, and when this happens, it makes him happy and then he lets it go.

I really do not understand this.

[mrwho]

Re: Where the rubber meets the road.

Well, if I slapped my kid everytime someone else annoyed me, I'd go to jail. Imagine nailing him to a couple of wooden slates...

[Darren King]

Re: Where the rubber meets the road.

Chameleon, since you have stated to be a follower of Jesus, please explain this to me, and this is a serious question that I can't comprehend.Explain how Jesus being nailed to a cross saves people from eternal damnation. To a nonbeliever like myself, that story comes across as ... There is this really powerful being that is pissed at everyone around him, and rather that just getting over himself, he sends his son to them knowing he will be tortured and killed, and when this happens, it makes him happy and then he lets it go.

I really do not understand this.

I think it goes more like this. "God loved the people so much that he gave his only son to take the sins of the people on the condition they become saved by believing in him (Jesus) and so guarantee themselves eternal life in heaven"
Now, can you explain evolution. It kinda comes across as..... A ball of slime in primordial pond that nobody seems to know where it came from turned into other things which turned into other things over and over again until it became everything that we see around us. Yup, sounds believable. lol Ummm, maybe not.

[fixthecopier]

Re: Where the rubber meets the road.

I think it goes more like this. "God loved the people so much that he gave his only son to take the sins of the people on the condition they become saved by believing in him (Jesus) and so guarantee themselves eternal life in heaven"
Now, can you explain evolution. It kinda comes across as..... A ball of slime in primordial pond that nobody seems to know where it came from turned into other things which turned into other things over and over again until it became everything that we see around us. Yup, sounds believable. lol Ummm, maybe not.

I have heard that bible passage many times Darren, still doesn't explain anything. If God loved us so much, why not just forgive us, without a condition to follow. Based on that explanation, should I assume that all who do not believe in Jesus as the son of God are not getting heaven. Pretty much most of the planet. This discussion would be more interesting if we had someone who is Jewish, Muslim, and Hindu to add to the discussion.

As far as explanation for evolution, there is a thread called "Indentured servants my ass..." that contains tons of stuff that nobody reading this, wants to have posted again.