Reliability vs maintainance/repair cost?

[PCB-Engineer]

Awesome forum you folks have here. I've been eavesdropping for a couple of weeks and am very impressed. Of the 3-4 year old color copiers out there, taking toner, drums, developer, transfer belt, fuser, etc. into account as well as general repair and service calls, which copier has the lowest overall ownership cost?

I know you folks hate this, and I may live to regret it, but I'm looking to buy a copier with no service contract. I do part-time contract work on the side and have clients visiting my home office regularly. It annoys them that I can't immediately print off and/or copy what they need. I looked into it and can't afford a lease right now but if I can limp a long for a year or so on my own, then I will be able to. I'm technical enough that with a service manual and parts source I can eventually fix about anything, but getting a copier that requires a lot of manufacturer phone calls to be able to reset things is probably not the best for me.

The volume of this copier will be low, in the 500-750 pages per month range, and almost all of them will be color schematics and CAD drawings at 11"x17" with 20-40% coverage. About 1 out of every 10 prints will be 8.5"x 11" microscope photographs. My pain threshold is about $1500-$2000. After reading many posts on this forum, I've decided I won't buy a unit unless it has been on a service contract and has at least 50% life left on all the expensive stuff.

What unit would you gurus recommend? Also, what is a typical for page counts that I should avoid?

Thank you for your help, and I promise not to pester you with a lot of issues or blame you if things don't turn out.

[kingpd@businessprints.net]

Re: Reliability vs maintainance/repair cost?

So you basically need a cheap to run color device that does 11x17. And with the budget you've established $1500-$2500 max. you'll be looking at a 20-25ppm machine, although deals can be found for faster machines. There's really only two brands that I would consider for your situation, and that is Canon and Konica Minolta. I wouldn't rule out Ricoh though as a third option.

Why rule out the other brands like Sharp, Xerox, and Toshiba. This is my opinion, but I believe Toshiba and Sharp color devices to be not as up to par as Canon and Konica Minolta. Although Xerox would be the number one choice for someone looking to fix their own machines, mainly because they're big on user replaceable parts; they are expensive to run for the same reason.

You have two viable options as I see it. One, you find a gently used color machine for under a thousand dollars and hopefully it gets you through the year and only pay for service as the need arises; or two, you check with some dealers to see what they have in off-lease equipment that may have been underused and you get a maintenance contract on it.

Option 1: gently used machine and you fix it or call for repair as the need arises. There's some good deals on the Canon C3200/C3220 machine and the right one should last you a while. They're old enough that there's a lot of surplus stuff out there for them. I believe that they're also more module based. Also with Canon, no developer to worry about. For Konica Minolta I'd go one or two generations ago. They're still out there and good machines and pretty clean and easy to change some supplies and parts, although there is the developer factor. The model numbers are all fuzzy but I think they were something like C203, C253, C252 for the 20/25ppm versions; C353, c352 etc. for the 35ppm versions. I'm not as familiar with the Ricoh family but I think they had a line that was more of a user module based system. Ricoh and Konica Minolta are probably cheaper to run in general but the right Canon should be good too.

Option 2: off-lease machine with a service contract. Oddly enough, given your really low volume I'd recommend any of the above mentioned machines if the dealer has any available. Of course with this option, who cares what the make and model is as long as the service and quality is there for you. Your best and worst point is your low volume needs. It works against you because with low volume you're going to get a higher click charge. But it can work for you because with low volume there is less risk. Maybe you can get a dealer to throw in a few hundred pages or so a month before being charged overages as part of the lease or purchase agreement. As far as click charges, 20% coverage and up is typical of copy shop coverage and the machine range you're looking at aren't the least expensive per page machines for volume. Remember, typically the higher cost of the machine for extra volume capacity means lower cost per page printing. I'd say any machine in any geographic location where you're paying for the machine itself by buying/leasing should not go above 2 cents for black and white and 10 cents for color per letter size image. So I'd use those as a cap-out point. Realistically I believe 500-1000 pages per month should get you between 1-1.5 cents b/w and 7-10 cents color. Remember it's all about volume and ink coverage that makes the price range slide.

Good Luck!

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

Re: Reliability vs maintainance/repair cost?

The actual cost of ownership of a product is made up of the capital cost that is the purchase price and the cost of operation and maintenance. The latter, over a number of years, often exceed the capital cost and is dependent to a large extent on Reliability. Improved reliability means improved design and production cost, while the cost of repairs and free replacement under guarantee falls. The maintenance cost will naturally fall as reliability improves. Therefore try to make evaluation of the total cost involved. Although generally, the minimum cost/optimum reliability point is difficult to realize in practice because it involves a prediction of the various cost factors, with reliability are actually going to vary. The question to ask yourself is; Are you prepared to pay for high values of operational reliability, if you intend to avoid the manufacture's phone calls to be able to reset things? Remember RELIABILITY is simply a prediction of likely success of operation...just a probability and it goes hand in hand with FAILURE...which is the termination of the ability of an item to perform its required function. Having said that, I would concur with kinpd's advice about the canon or km machines he has recommended for you.

[pepper38_cnd]

Re: Reliability vs maintainance/repair cost?

You say that you think you will be in a position to Lease a New Machine a year from now? If this is the case contact your local Dealers and ask them to rent you a machine for a year at say $150/month plus click charge for service and consumables, with the intent that if all goes well you will lease a new machine at the end of the rental. Times are tough and a lot of Dealers have piles of off lease equipment in their warehouse not generating any income. You should take advantage of that. Buying used is a crap shoot you cannot accurately rely on the life counters, and to purchase used and then have to replace as you say all the expensive stuff, can be costly.

This would be a Win Win situation for both you and the Dealer and we would not have you on here a month from now asking how to fix a problem.

As far as Brands I agree you have been well advised.

[PCB-Engineer]

Re: Reliability vs maintainance/repair cost?

Thank you for the great advice! I had already checked into the rental option and it wasn't that good of a deal here in Utah. Other than the home construction industry, our recession has been very light compared to the rest of the country. Most dealers around here are actually importing off-lease units from out-of-state dealersThe four companies I've only gave me an option of buying an off-lease machine at 25-50 percent of cost (apparently about $3k for the cheapest units) and then a service contract of about $75 per month plus typical click costs, with a 6-month minimum contract. Leasing starts at about $250 per month for a low-end current model machine, but requires a minimum 36-month commitment and I still had to pony up $2-3K at the end of the lease if I wanted to buy the machine.

I was already leaning towards a Bizhub C203/C253/C353 and I think I'll go this way. They are bit newer than the Cannon C3200/C3220 and according to Precision Roller the drums and fuser last quite a bit longer. If I'm not mistaken, it looks like the C203/C253 are all identical and all use the same parts. They just neuter print speed and part life on the C203 in software right? The C353 appears to have upgraded drums/toner, but otherwise is also just differentiated in software, right?

I don't really care about print speed. 20ppm is plenty fast for my needs (way faster than driving to Kinko's). But from what I can tell, the C203/C253 go for about the same price. The C353 commands a pretty decent premium. Is there another difference I'm overlooking? Is there any difference in print quality?

Also, at what click count are these considered worn out?

[kingpd@businessprints.net]

Re: Reliability vs maintainance/repair cost?

The C203 was meant to be more of an entry level machine for businesses to get into color at a lower price point. Supplies are cheaper on the 253/353/453 but the machines cost more. Yes as you go up the ladder the premium for the speed difference can be significant.

I wouldn't rule out the Canon on the age factor if you're servicing yourself. That's when parts/supplies get cheaper. Newest always costs more.

[kingpd@businessprints.net]

Re: Reliability vs maintainance/repair cost?

As far as machine life, with proper care you'll get into the hundred thousands easy. From there it's good maint. cleaning and how much you want to put into it. If you hit a million on the meter then you're doing great.

[PCB-Engineer]

Re: Reliability vs maintainance/repair cost?

Thanks for all the responses.

How does the Ricoh MPC4500 compare to the recommended Bizhub and Canon units? I have the opportunity to get a MPC4500 locally with only 92K pages on it. It just came off a service contract. The asking price is $1500. It has a finisher that I don't really need, but I'm guessing I can just remove it if it starts giving me trouble.

[sandmanmac]

Re: Reliability vs maintainance/repair cost?

I won't lie and say I read all the posts...I didn't.
Here's what I know. You are relatively low usage, end-user, looking for a reliable colour machine, and you are fairly technically adept.
If all the above is true, for $1500 , buy the MP C4500. Period.
With that Meter, depending on how it`s broken down (B&W vs. Colour), i would expect that the colour count is substantially less than the B& W, so the only thing it might require sooner rather than later is a Black Drum. it won`t hurt to ask around and get somebody local with some actual `Ricoh` knowledge to check it over, and clean it up, because, with all due respect, as handy as you may be, we all have our niches, and you can truly do a lot of costly damage (with relative ease) on this type of machine.
P.S.
Someone that is truly honest and upfront with their service, will acknowledge the fact that when you require a colour drum, the black unit can easily be modified to fit, rather than paying 3 times the price that Ricoh would charge you for the colour unit!
Good Luck! -and never, ever use a compatible toner! The original may cost more but remember it`s VERY high yield, and will save you hundreds- if not thousands of dollars when the compatible inevitably fails!
Good Luck

[Gift]

Re: Reliability vs maintainance/repair cost?

I have the opportunity to get a MPC4500 locally with only 92K pages on it. It just came off a service contract. The asking price is $1500.

The price is attractive but you can't expect that all maintanance parts has been renewed recently. I've seen other customers buying these kind of deals and got faced with intense repair costs/estimates shortly after. There is no company that likes to put pricey parts into a machine that is going onward to the end of the service-contract time, so technicians are instructed to clean things if possible and gain some time.

I wouldn't buy second hand machines without a service contract or knowing the exact status of all relevant parts.

[kingpd@businessprints.net]

Re: Reliability vs maintainance/repair cost?

The problem is customers get a little unrealistic when it comes to cost. People want a perfect working machine for a few hundred dollars and expect it to work as if it was rebuilt by the dealer with several thousand dollars in actual parts costs.

Case in point, I have a really nice full color machine that nobody wants to pay $1500 for with free freight. The freakin' fuser unit in that bad boy was about $900 bucks alone. Had I put in all new parts, and you can always put in new parts, add a few thousand more.

Although it's not always true, there's usually a good reason why one machine may cost a few thousand more over the another.

[PCB-Engineer]

Re: Reliability vs maintainance/repair cost?

Thanks for your responses. FYI, I agree fully with what has been said. I have not yet bought a copier because the guys selling the cheap stuff are so shady. This is worse than buying from a used car dealership. Everything I have come across that looks like a good deal turns out to be pure junk. I've been to see four copiers that "work perfectly" only to get there and have them mis-feeding, streaking pages, or even shooting blanks. All of the online and eBay guys will hardly even return my calls.

On two of the Konica Minolta machines I went to see, both had resoldered fuses on the drums. I'm guessing this was to reset the counters? But from what I can tell, the Ricoh's drum counters can be reset from the service menu? I'm completely at the mercy of the honesty of the service guy, even if I do find a "well-serviced" unit.

I also looked at a few Canons and Sharps. Those units take way too long to warmup for my needs.

In the meantime I continue to save money and look for a "deal". I think I see a lease+contract in my future.