Savin 4051 - Left Tandem Tray Not Shifting

[unisys12]

Hey guys! I really need everyone's input on this one. It has just about kicked everyone's butt here in the shop.

To start out, the machine is a wholesale machine that we got in sometime last week. We noticed right off that the right side tandem tray was not noticing paper at all. We took a look-see and found that all the sensors on the front side of the right tandem tray. We installed sensors (used) and that cleared that up. Then, we found that if the right side ran out of paper during a run, it would display a SC990 code. I upgraded the firmware and that took care of that. SP7990-01 showed "ENG:device.c" as the error description, sooooo that was simple enough.

That leads us to the current problem at hand. The left side will not shift paper to the right side. At the time the drawer is closed, you hear the right side gates fire, to allow the paper to move over, but they quickly close back. Also, if you take the black gear off the shift motor, move the rear fence to the right and close the door - it will spin backwards, but not for more than a few inches then stop. I know, by viewing the point to point, that the motor is supplied with a switched 24v source. When check for this 24v, it is not found at the motor, the connector or the PFC PCB at the time the drawer is shut. I swapped out the PFC board, but still no luck. We swapped sensors and the shift motor, of to no avail!! We have even swapped out the whole left side assembly, as well as the right side assembly. Just throwing rocks at it you know. I pulled the power supply this morning and checked the connector for the assembly and everything "looked good" as well as all the wiring as well.

Could someone possibly throw me a bone on this one. We are all just about at the point of rolling it back out to the garage and leaving it there. The machine only has 153k on it so... and I am sure that this was the reason the machine was wholesaled to begin with. Either way, we would like to get it fixed.

Thanks guys!

[schooltech]

I would say that it sounds connector related, even though it runs a bit and stops.

I don't believe that there is an output check for the fence, at least not on the previous gen boxes.

When I've had the gates do that, it's usually connector related, but each problem has its own solution.

Do a quick check at the receptacle in the machine, from the back, and make sure that any wires aren't frayed or rubbing on the frame or something.

These are good boxes, but sometimes crap like this happens. I get my machines wholesale, and right now I have a finisher that is pissing me off. So, I purchased a parts box (finally) and the finisher will replace the one that I just put a new board in a month ago, and it's doing the same thing again. I think I have a wiring "issue" and will spend time isolating the wires, but not yet.....

[unisys12]

"schooltech" - I checked all power coming in and out... nothing out of the normal. Yeah, it really pissed me off too! But, I did have a hunch all day and did not have a chance to try it until this afternoon.

We got in a new 8060 yesterday. Well, I took the right side tandem tray out of the new MFP and placed it in the old 4051. Guess what... Everything worked fine! This told me that the problem was isolated to the right tandem tray. After talking this over with another tech, in the shop, we got at it head long!

Ok! Here's how this whole thing works! When the right side senses that there is no paper preseant, it looks for paper in the left tray. If there is not paper preseant in the right and paper present on the left, the PFC board turns on the 5v switch to the solenoids that control the right entrace gates. These gates open to allow the paper on the left side to move over to the right side of the tray. At the same time, there is 24v switched over to the shift motor allowing it to shift the paper over from the left side of the tray to the right. After the paper detect sensor on the right side detects paper, it closes the gates. At this point, or around the same time, it should be sensed that the right fence has reached the upper limit sensor and this cuts the right fence motor off.

What's happening is that the right solenoids are firing, but they turn off right after firing. This moves the right fence motor just a few inches, like I mentioned before. So why? This afternoon, after checking everything else, I suppected one of the four gate sensors in the right tray. After changing them all out, we got no change!

What the hell!?

[FRIDGEMAGNET]

I was going to mention the gate sensors but you tried them, had problems with the front ones.
Another thing to try is the rails that the tray sits on, these come loose and cause the connectors to move apart.
Next try the looms from the PFC to the tandem trays.
Good luck sounds like a fun one.

[MFPGUY]

Hey guys! I really need everyone's input on this one. It has just about kicked everyone's butt here in the shop.

To start out, the machine is a wholesale machine that we got in sometime last week. We noticed right off that the right side tandem tray was not noticing paper at all. We took a look-see and found that all the sensors on the front side of the right tandem tray. We installed sensors (used) and that cleared that up. Then, we found that if the right side ran out of paper during a run, it would display a SC990 code. I upgraded the firmware and that took care of that. SP7990-01 showed "ENG:device.c" as the error description, sooooo that was simple enough.

That leads us to the current problem at hand. The left side will not shift paper to the right side. At the time the drawer is closed, you hear the right side gates fire, to allow the paper to move over, but they quickly close back. Also, if you take the black gear off the shift motor, move the rear fence to the right and close the door - it will spin backwards, but not for more than a few inches then stop. I know, by viewing the point to point, that the motor is supplied with a switched 24v source. When check for this 24v, it is not found at the motor, the connector or the PFC PCB at the time the drawer is shut. I swapped out the PFC board, but still no luck. We swapped sensors and the shift motor, of to no avail!! We have even swapped out the whole left side assembly, as well as the right side assembly. Just throwing rocks at it you know. I pulled the power supply this morning and checked the connector for the assembly and everything "looked good" as well as all the wiring as well.

Could someone possibly throw me a bone on this one. We are all just about at the point of rolling it back out to the garage and leaving it there. The machine only has 153k on it so... and I am sure that this was the reason the machine was wholesaled to begin with. Either way, we would like to get it fixed.

Thanks guys!

This is a good one, by the way I wish I had a service manager like you, the ones we have know yack.

you said:

Also, if you take the black gear off the shift motor, move the rear fence to the right and close the door - it will spin backwards, but not for more than a few inches then stop. *** if you do this the gate will not activate the sensor and it will stop***

how much paper have you tried loading? try doing everything the same but with two or ten sheet of paper, let me know what happens.

Also try doing input checks using sp5803 1

1. Paper Feed 1
Bit Description Reading
0 1

7 Rear Side Fence Close Sensor Activated Deactivated
6 Rear Side Fence Open Sensor Activated Deactivated
5 Front Side Fence Close Sensor Activated Deactivated
4 Front Side Fence Open Sensor Activated Deactivated
3 Near End Sensor
(see tables below)
2 Paper Height 1 Sensor
1 Paper Height 2 Sensor

0 Paper Height 3 Sensor

[unisys12]

Also try doing input checks using sp5803 1

1. Paper Feed 1
Bit Description Reading
0 1

7 Rear Side Fence Close Sensor Activated Deactivated
6 Rear Side Fence Open Sensor Activated Deactivated
5 Front Side Fence Close Sensor Activated Deactivated
4 Front Side Fence Open Sensor Activated Deactivated
3 Near End Sensor
(see tables below)
2 Paper Height 1 Sensor
1 Paper Height 2 Sensor

0 Paper Height 3 Sensor

Came in this morning and checked the Front and Rear Fences using the above the SP... found that the rear fence worked fine, but the front fence would only switch if you manually moved the fence. If you moved the fence by way of the solenoid, it would not switch properly. I took the sensor bracket off once and again and saw that it was just slightly twisted. Just enough that that the solenoid could not pull the fence far enough the actuate the sensor. After "reforming" the bracket, everything works great now.

Thanks guys!!

[schooltech]

Ahh, an easy fix to a pain-in-the-ass problem. As with other problems like this that we run across again, it's something you don't easily forget.

Until the next problem.........

[MFPGUY]

Good job

Awesome, Great find! I will keep that in mine in case I run into it.