key counter

[stani]

I have installed for a copy shop a self-build counting system and it worked fine with elder machines. But I didnt find how to unlock the MP 3054 after setting External charge unit management. I have tried all the possible settings in SP 5113-001 and 002. Shorting Pins 1 and 2 on CN133 did not work. This modell can have an Option Key Counter Holder Type M3 installed, so I hoped, it could work with external counter also without the optional Key Counter Interface Type M12. If the M12 interface is obligatory, does anybody know the output pinout of this interface?

[slimslob]

Re: key counter

That depends on the type of external "Key Counter" you are referring to. If you are talking about the old departmental key counters like let's say a Hecon counter, you will need the appropriate counter socket, bracket is optional, and wiring harness of use on the 54s. Contact the counter manufacturer to be sure you have the correct harness. Follow the instruction for the bracket as far as the connection of the harness is concerned. SP 5113-002 I believe controls this type device. There may also be a setting in User Tools.

SP 5113-001 sounds more like for devices that require the electronics of the key counter interface. They may also require a JAVA app to function. SP 5402 Access Control be set for the correct type of eternal billing device.

[stani]

[stani]

Re: key counter

There are 3 Settings in User Tools:
Key Counter Management (always editable)
External Charge Unit Management (only editable with SP5-113-001 not 0)
Enhanced External Charge Management (only editable with SP5-113-002 not 0)
I have tryed all the possible settings and cannot block/release the machine with shortening pins 1 and 2 on CN133 (Key counter socket)
Even if the optional Key Counter Interface is attached on the 20 contact connector, the 4 Pole connector cannot block/release the copy function.
I want to use the 4 pole connector, because the 20 Pole Connector dont provide double count for A3/Ledger format, as far as I could find out.

[oldschool]

Re: key counter

The 20 pin M12 connection outputs level signals for paper size. There are 4 lines that go high or low. Depending on that combination, a vend device can determine what paper size has been selected.

I think if you are using the 4 pin key counter, you only need to set that in the Key Counter Management section in the user tools admin modes and make sure nothing is set in SP-5113. Also, if you're using SP-5113, you don't want anything in key counter set. I don't have a wiring diagram to verify the pin outs of the key counter connector or it's number but the line to bring the copier ready is usually a 5 volt DC signal line dropped low by jumping to ground. The other two lines usually show as 24 VDC.

You could try SP-5113 and set default optional counter type to 11 (you may need to page down to see 11) and only set options in ext charge unit management leaving anything in key counter unselected.

I don't know what Enhanced Ext charge unit management does but I'm pretty sure you want to leave it alone with nothing selected.

[stani]

Re: key counter

I also thought so, and tried both solutions you offer. I have found in the documentation, that the 4 pole connector is to be used with sp5113-001 0, 11 oder 12, but I dont manage to use the 5 V line of this connector to block/release the copy function. No matter if I choose copier in KeyCounter or ExternalCharge Management (User Tools). I also restarted the copier after changing settings. I think, I have tried all the possible combinations of 5-113-001 (0,11,12) with both user tools(KeyCounter and External charge)

In the Goose Guide I found:"To enable HECON, make sure all options in Key Counter Management is off. Go to SP 5113 - 001 and set to '1'. Go to SP 5113 - 002 and set to '1'. Now go to user tools>system settings>administrator tools>External Charge Unit Management and select the function desired for restriction." it didnt work either.

I have the Pinout of the M12, but it dont provide doublecount tor large size copies.

I am afraid I have a false setting in some other service mode than 5-113 or in User Tools other than KeyCounter/External Charge/Extended Charge Management that prevents the usage of 4 Pole connector. User authentification is turned off. FactoryMode reset 5-846-46 is done.

[slimslob]

Re: key counter

If you look at the installation instructions in the service manual for the key counter bracket it tells you to remove the connector(probably a jumper) on CN133 of the BCU and connect the key counter harness to CN133. If the connector removed is a jumper, the 2 pins jumped by the jumper are the enable leads to allow copying/printing. Of the other 2 pins, one is +5 volts for the counter coil and the other is pulsed to ground to cause the counter coil to energize every time the mechanical lease counter counts. I believe that if A3 double count is set then it will receive a double count.

[stani]

Re: key counter

The connector on CN133 shortens pins 1 and 4 (I think it is just a loop to pull the wrong insert Protection Cover)
wronginsert.jpg
CN 133 Measured:
Pin1 Ground
Pin2 5 V
Pin3 24 V
Pin4 2,5-3 V on different machines.
CN133.JPG
I dont understand, why only the pin 4 is mentioned in this table.

No matter, if I shorten the Pins 1 and 2 or 1 and 4, I cannot release the Copy function

[oldschool]

Re: key counter

Pins 1 and 2 are correct. Do not short any other pins together. Pins three and four are for the count. Pin four will drop low and allow the copier to send a 24 volt pulse to the counter. You've tried all the settings and there has been no change. Either Ricoh has made a service mode change no one here knows about yet or there is a board problem with your machine. Do you actually have an M12 board? Do you know if you can bring the copier ready with it (pins A-9 and B-9)?

As a rule I only post our products when I think it's a relevant solution. We sell something called a True Count. It's a simple controller that can bring a copier ready and will look at the signals from an M12 interface and will separate large paper counts from small paper counts. If you have an M12 interface board installed and it's functional, this may be a solution for you. Someone in sales can get you a quote if you're interested.

[stani]

Re: key counter

I have tried it on different machines of the same type, so I dont think there is a board problem.
M12 works as it schould, the only problem, it provides no doublecount for large format.
Thank you for the information, but I think, True count is not the optimal solution for this particular customer, he has 14 machines in the copy shop. We have in Germany similar solutions, but they are not so handy for 14 copiers. The other important thing - on the self-made counter tableau the reset button has 2 pairs of contacts - 1st for counter reset and 2nd to restore copiers default settings, I have not seen this functionality on readymade solutions.
The only idea I have now is to use M12 and 2 counters for each machine - small and large format and to route the count pulse with a relais controlled by B8-A8 output to the large format counter. This would make the counter tableu twice so large, and will need more lines to each machine. Doublecount on 4 Pole connector could be much more convenient. And I think, it should work, because ricoh describes in the service manual the installation of an oldscool key counter bracket for this machine, but with no information on service mode and user tools settings. Maybe I have to order this bracket, to see if more information will be shipped with it.

[SteinarN]

Re: key counter

I hope I am not a fool now...
Do the machine double count A3 internally, in the SP fields for pages printed?
Is it set to double count A3 there?

[stani]

Re: key counter

sure, double count is activated and internal counter counts twice on large format. The only problem is - on the 20 pole output of counter interface board large format is signalized not by 2 count pulses, but by 1 count pulse on A-10/B-10 and shorting A-8/B-8

[stani]

Solved!

I have the solution:
it is not necessary to set anything in SP 5-113, only Key Counter Management in User Tools.
The main thing: you must first attach the coil of the counter to Pins 3 and 4, than you can block/release with shortening pins 1&2!
One cannot relase the machine on pins 1 and 2 without the coil on 3 and 4

[mkdirs]

Re: key counter

explain please

[stani]

Re: key counter

In the past it was enough just to shorten 2 pins of the 4-pole key counter connector (5 Volt Counter Set) to tell the machine, the key counter is set. Now the presence of the counter is also checked on the other 2 pins (~24V counter pulse). You have to attach first your counting system to the Counter Pulse output, than you can block/release the machine by opening/shorting Counter Set pins.