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  • bonnie750
    Trusted Tech

    250+ Posts
    • Nov 2007
    • 302

    arm620

    what is the required button sequence to access sims in the 80 range on an arm620.We've just remannned the machine and need to clear the lifetime total. i can't find it in the service manual

    thanks

    Bill
  • Nachoman4life
    Trusted Tech

    Site Contributor
    100+ Posts
    • Oct 2007
    • 212

    #2
    remanuf. or not, rolling back the master counter is fraud, can I sell you a used car that I remanuf, w/ 0 miles on the odometer? This is why the special commands aren't listed in field manuals.
    Where the heck is my spring hook?

    Comment

    • Nachoman4life
      Trusted Tech

      Site Contributor
      100+ Posts
      • Oct 2007
      • 212

      #3
      Originally posted by Nachoman4life
      remanuf. or rolling back the master counter is fraud, can I sell you a used car that I remanuf, w/ 0 miles on the odometer?
      I am not responsible for your fraud conviction P*CA*
      Where the heck is my spring hook?

      Comment

      • bonnie750
        Trusted Tech

        250+ Posts
        • Nov 2007
        • 302

        #4
        Your opinion and you are welcome to it, even if it is misguided

        Comment

        • bonnie750
          Trusted Tech

          250+ Posts
          • Nov 2007
          • 302

          #5
          thanks for the info though!!

          Comment

          • Nachoman4life
            Trusted Tech

            Site Contributor
            100+ Posts
            • Oct 2007
            • 212

            #6
            Its not an opinion its the LAW.
            Where the heck is my spring hook?

            Comment

            • bonnie750
              Trusted Tech

              250+ Posts
              • Nov 2007
              • 302

              #7
              Like i said your opinion ,wrong but you're welcome to it.....and did I say thanks for the info?

              Comment

              • Nachoman4life
                Trusted Tech

                Site Contributor
                100+ Posts
                • Oct 2007
                • 212

                #8
                to each his own, but I typoed the code P * CA P
                Where the heck is my spring hook?

                Comment

                • Ast0reth
                  Technician
                  • Mar 2009
                  • 12

                  #9
                  Is that, legally, fraud? I don't mean to question you, but do you have any links you could send me regarding that? There's a few people I'd like to bring this up with.

                  Comment

                  • bilyahn
                    Service Manager

                    1,000+ Posts
                    • Dec 2006
                    • 1457

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Ast0reth
                    Is that, legally, fraud? I don't mean to question you, but do you have any links you could send me regarding that? There's a few people I'd like to bring this up with.
                    I think it is a matter of semantics. Remanufactured versus refurbished. Both operations are similar and we do this with our machines but do not reset the master counters. We have reset the display counters at the customers request but that is in the normal simulations portion of the service manual. I think you do a dis-service to your customers if you do not allow them to judge the value of the machine you are trying to sell them by misrepresenting the total counter. For leasing company's they place a higher value on reman copiers versus refurb. However I do not think it is illegal or the copier companies would not allow you to do it. There might be some consumer groups who would have better information about that or might even want knowledge of this practice.
                    Last edited by bilyahn; 01-29-2010, 11:08 PM.

                    Comment

                    • glewisme
                      Trusted Tech

                      100+ Posts
                      • Nov 2009
                      • 240

                      #11
                      I'm not sure about copiers (it may be hte same) but is definately ILLEGAL to roll back a cars odometer!! Not sure how it relates to copiers but I would never do it.

                      Comment

                      • Nachoman4life
                        Trusted Tech

                        Site Contributor
                        100+ Posts
                        • Oct 2007
                        • 212

                        #12
                        Cant find the specifics but fraud is fraud, doesnt matter if it is a car, a copier, or an ice cream cone, its profit from INTENTIONALLY misrepresenting a piece of equipments usage. There is a need to reprogram a master counter in case of corruption or data loss, but luckily most modern machines store the info in more than one place for redundancy. Will keep looking over the week end, but I dont think I will find a copier specific law, it probably falls under a blanket law, of several industries.
                        I personally would quit on the spot if my employer asked me to do that or did it to a machine I am responsible for behind my back
                        Where the heck is my spring hook?

                        Comment

                        • ZOOTECH
                          Senior member of CRS

                          Site Contributor
                          2,500+ Posts
                          • Jul 2007
                          • 3383

                          #13
                          Bilyahn is on the right track, there are companies that are certified by the OEM to remanufacture their products, they can zero out the meters. They follow a strick guide from the OEM on the remanufacture. A rebuilt or refurbished copier cannot be turned back.
                          "You can't trust your eyes, if your mind is out of focus" --

                          Comment

                          • OMD-227

                            #14
                            If your sales department is selling a second-hand/refurb machine, it would usually be because the client has actually asked for one, or they are not prepared to pay the price for a new machine, so a refurb machine is then offered to them.
                            That would mean that the client already knows that it is second-hand, has done previous work, and is happy to accept it the way it is, once refurbed with as many parts as possible.
                            Our workshop guys are currently refurbing heaps of MX color machines that were first placed in the field in 2006, as these are now coming in from contract with new MX's going out. The sales guys are always after good quality, second-hand machines that can be sold, as there are clients who want them. The main counters are NEVER reset, and those that go out as second-hand/refurbs are always well accepted by the new client (most of the time never had a color machine before, so they are very happy).

                            You cant tell me a machine that is several years old, will have the same condition of the covers, op panel, scan glass and overall appearance of a new machine, no matter how well you clean it up.
                            It would be obvious to someone with little to no experience in this field to tell it has been used before, even if the counters were on zero.

                            I'm with everyone else on this matter..... dont touch main counters, as this is the true representation of the machine. Its also handy to see further down the track when servicing the machine, what work a particular part has actually done. It's a better diagnostic tool for us all to know that, lets says... a problematic main drive unit.....has actually done several mil, rather than to guess how much work it has done with an incorrect main counter. It is much easier to get an overall picture of how the machine is, and what parts could be starting to fail, years down the track with an actual real main counter instead of guessing, wasting time & money, and shooting yourself in the foot!

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                            • ZOOTECH
                              Senior member of CRS

                              Site Contributor
                              2,500+ Posts
                              • Jul 2007
                              • 3383

                              #15
                              Originally posted by wazza
                              You cant tell me a machine that is several years old, will have the same condition of the covers, op panel, scan glass and overall appearance of a new machine, no matter how well you clean it up.
                              It would be obvious to someone with little to no experience in this field to tell it has been used before, even if the counters were on zero.
                              These are the parts that a certified OEM remanufacturer do replace and not just the cosmetics. They replace all major drive componets, assemblies, rollers, etc.
                              A remanufactured copier done to OEM requirements, looks just like a new machine. It is not sold as a new machine but as a remanfactured machine.
                              I totally agree that a remanufactured, refurbished, or rebuilt machine should be sold as such, and not presented as new.
                              "You can't trust your eyes, if your mind is out of focus" --

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