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  1. #131
    Service Manager 1,000+ Posts
    Need some advice on learning networking

    BillyCarpenter's Avatar
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    Re: Need some advice on learning networking

    I can't speak for anyone else but this site has been such an incredible resource for me. Maybe that's because I had such a long way to go but I can tell you that I've learned a ton since joining this site and it wasn't that long. Whether I have a question about a copier or networking...someone has the answer or can point me to it.

    One thing I've learned thus far about networking is that when you go down one road it's gonna take you down six other ones.

  2. #132
    RTFM!! 2,500+ Posts allan's Avatar
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    Re: Need some advice on learning networking

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyCarpenter View Post
    I can't speak for anyone else but this site has been such an incredible resource for me. Maybe that's because I had such a long way to go but I can tell you that I've learned a ton since joining this site and it wasn't that long. Whether I have a question about a copier or networking...someone has the answer or can point me to it.

    One thing I've learned thus far about networking is that when you go down one road it's gonna take you down six other ones.
    Starting with this Arduino development platform was like that for me.
    Took 3 shameful weeks of not knowing what fuse bits are to get a boot-loader onto an Atmel MPU.
    At first I was trying to understand everything in dept from the coding to the electronics and the layout and PCB design.
    Ended up going so slow at first trying to make perfect sense of everything getting side tracked on everything new.
    Quickly learned not to dig to deep. Only when something does not work will i dig deeper to see if i can fix it.
    Instead started using blocks of existing functional parts to create the projects i was interested in.
    Its amazing what you can create, and still don't have complete understanding of the sub parts of it.

    Its like Lego, when you play with them you don't think about how the lego was made.
    Whatever

  3. #133
    Service Manager 1,000+ Posts rthonpm's Avatar
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    Re: Need some advice on learning networking

    One big advice in terms of networking: almost every protocol used has some sort of old world process that it tried to emulate. Often times, it's easier to picture network processes in the same manner. For example, IP packet switching is an analogue to the old phone switching where an operator would route a call from one location to another at a switchboard. To some extent, knowing what every single process does isn't as important as know the general idea of what it's doing.

    Pick up a decent book on Network+ and go through the items it covers will give you enough of a grounding to at least get in the general vicinity of where a problem may lie.

  4. #134
    Service Manager 1,000+ Posts
    Need some advice on learning networking

    BillyCarpenter's Avatar
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    Re: Need some advice on learning networking

    Quote Originally Posted by rthonpm View Post
    One big advice in terms of networking: almost every protocol used has some sort of old world process that it tried to emulate. Often times, it's easier to picture network processes in the same manner. For example, IP packet switching is an analogue to the old phone switching where an operator would route a call from one location to another at a switchboard. To some extent, knowing what every single process does isn't as important as know the general idea of what it's doing.

    Pick up a decent book on Network+ and go through the items it covers will give you enough of a grounding to at least get in the general vicinity of where a problem may lie.
    Very interesting concept. I'm in the stage to where I can't see the forest for the trees, so to speak, but one thing I learned is that everything is governed by a protocol and that every protocol runs thru a port. And it's important to know what protocol is running on what port. It also helps to understand something about the protocol you're dealing with.

  5. #135
    Service Manager 1,000+ Posts
    Need some advice on learning networking

    BillyCarpenter's Avatar
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    Re: Need some advice on learning networking

    Let me share an experience I had the other day and maybe somebody can explain to me.

    I go out to install a copier the other day and they had 2 wireless PC's and 2 routers. One router had a wireless network address starting with 192.xxx.xxx.xxx. The other router has a wireless network address starting with 10. Automatically this makes me nervous because I've very inexperienced and my understanding is that every device has to be in the same network range in order to communicate. But they were able to access both wireless networks with no problem. I'm probably talking out my ass but I still don't understand this.

  6. #136
    Geek Extraordinaire 2,500+ Posts KenB's Avatar
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    Re: Need some advice on learning networking

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyCarpenter View Post
    Let me share an experience I had the other day and maybe somebody can explain to me.

    I go out to install a copier the other day and they had 2 wireless PC's and 2 routers. One router had a wireless network address starting with 192.xxx.xxx.xxx. The other router has a wireless network address starting with 10. Automatically this makes me nervous because I've very inexperienced and my understanding is that every device has to be in the same network range in order to communicate. But they were able to access both wireless networks with no problem. I'm probably talking out my ass but I still don't understand this.
    Itís possible to bind 2 IP addresses to a network card, either wired or wireless.
    Some days youíre the dog, some days youíre the fire hydrant.

  7. #137
    Service Manager 1,000+ Posts
    Need some advice on learning networking

    BillyCarpenter's Avatar
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    Re: Need some advice on learning networking

    Quote Originally Posted by KenB View Post
    It’s possible to bind 2 IP addresses to a network card, either wired or wireless.
    I don't really understand how that works but I'll research it.

    They had one router plugged into the other router...back to back. Like I said one was in the 192 range and the other in the 10 range.

    Now that I think about, the purpose of a router is to make it possible for computers to communicate on different network ranges. If they were connected by, lets say a hub, then they couldn't communicate...I'm talking about the 2 network ranges, not the 2 routers. Is that right?

  8. #138
    Service Manager 1,000+ Posts
    Need some advice on learning networking

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    Re: Need some advice on learning networking

    Quote Originally Posted by KenB View Post
    Itís possible to bind 2 IP addresses to a network card, either wired or wireless.

    I just went to YouTube and watched a video on binding 2 IP addresses to a network card. Now it makes sense. I can't begin to tell you how confused I was. Thanks for the info.

  9. #139
    Service Manager 1,000+ Posts
    Need some advice on learning networking

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    Re: Need some advice on learning networking

    I'm gonna post a link to the video that explains how to bind 2 network addresses to 1NIC.


    The reason I didn't understand the network configuration I encountered the other day is twofold:

    1. I didn't know it was possible to bind 2 network addresses to 1 NIC.

    and

    2. I didn't understand what they were trying to accomplish by doing so.


    I think I understand now. I'm going to try to explain as best as I can. I hope I have it right.

    The customer had 2 routers. One the 192 range and the other on the 10 range.

    When you bind 2 IP addresses on 1 NIC, now the PC can communicate with both networks. Moreover, now one internet connection is shared on both networks.

    I think I have that right?

    Here's the video:

    How to assign multiple IP addresses to a single Ethernet port or NIC of a PC - YouTube

  10. #140
    Field Supervisor 500+ Posts
    Need some advice on learning networking

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    Re: Need some advice on learning networking

    lets break down... your wired and wireless card issue...

    say you get internet connected to your house via comcast or other service...
    its usually coming to you through a router...
    the router usually has ports on the back...
    one port has the signal coming in...
    and the others sometimes 4 or more... is where you connect your other computers...
    lets just deal with your router as a black box...
    lets deal with whats coming out of your router...
    your router is assigned an ip range by your service provider... subnet and gateway...
    and usually this router has dhcp turned on so that it can pick any ip address in that pool...
    you can have lets say their are four ports... you can have four computers directly connected...
    which would have their own ip address assigned by dhcp...
    say you wanted to expand how many computers could connect...
    then you would connect one of those ports to a switch... all this does is expand the amount of ports that the router from your provider uses...
    say your router had wifi... then you can connect more devices this time via wifi... with no direct connection...
    say the signal was too weak from wifi to get to a certain room...
    then you would have a wireless bridge or a repeater -- the strategy is that this device or pair of devices... grabs the weak wifi signal and repeats it at a higher strength so you can connect via wifi... but you connect to the repeater and the repeater connects to your devices wifi...
    think of the repeater as a network switch without wires...

    thats a basic home network with just the router from your service provider...

    now lets say you wanted to create your own little network...
    you can connect your service provider router to a router that you bought...
    now the service provider router would be feeding a signal out of one of its ports... directly into the input of your router...
    and in this router you can create your own ip range, subnet, gateway...
    depending on the sophistication of your own router... you might have various kinds of protections built into it... routers can be quite sophisticated...
    and then you can connect switches and repeaters and do all that stuff under the protection of your own router...

    now what we just discussed is the basics of a local area network... but with a few more bells and whistles and a lot more finances thats what your internet service provider is doing when they put a router in your home...

    as an aside... most internet service providers don't like you to know that you can buy a router that meets their specs and only pay for the internet usage and not the equipment rental or purchase fees...
    an aside...

    ok... where does the problem come in...

    sometimes you might go to a customer site that has somethings connected to devices connected to their internet service provider router and some connected to thier router... if their router is setup where dhcp is disabled then their router is functioning as a network switch... no problem... everyone can communicate with each other... no problem... but if their router is connected as a router with dhcp turned on... depending on the traffic some devices on the router may not be able to communicate with others on the service provider router... you will have internet to everybody but your scanning to folder and email can break... because not everyone can see everyone else...

    this is usually when you call in their it person... you don't want to be redesigning their it infrastructure for your copier... too much liability... but you want to be able to explain the problem to the customer so they can decide what they want to do and who to call...

    now their is a way to do it by playing with routing tables in the routers... these are the tables that routers have that tell them what devices they have connected to and what their associated addresses are... -- above your paygrade

    their is also a way to do it as mentioned above by connecting everyone to the same router or getting a bigger router and having everyone connect to that... -- above your paygrade...

    as it for the copier you are responsible for the copier and its functionality... if within reason you cannot get it functioning as expected... it then falls on the inhouse IT person... if there is no inhouse IT person... then it falls on you with a nice fat fee per hour... and with the understanding that you will have to make changes to their network and you may even have to bring in your own outside contractor that the client will have to pay for... and with the understanding in writing ofcourse that if it all goes up someones nether regions your are not liable... because its their responsibility to make sure that they have the proper power outlets to fully power the copier and proper network support and layout to get fully utilize the desired copier features...

    now you can try and bind multiple ip addresses to local computers and it might work but in my experience sooner or later the customer will find a way to undo it... because they interact with the computers all the time... it can turn into an unneeded headache... you might find yourself at the customer site every month fixing what they broke... believe you me... I have been there... so always try for the simplest solution... and teach the IT person how to resolve the issue and then you will find him to be your greatest ally atleast till they fire him or he moves on...

    thats my working theory at the moment... always subject to change...
    Sad To Say I Don't Have a Life
    I do this stuff on the weekends too

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