Wanna see some cool copies?

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  • blackcat4866
    Master Of The Obvious

    Site Contributor
    10,000+ Posts
    • Jul 2007
    • 22929

    #1

    Wanna see some cool copies?

    KM-3051ci, 1200 total prints.

    Copies off the glass and prints are normal. Scans and copies through the DP-770 are focused, clear and totally off color. In the pix the lower half is the copy off the glass or print, upper half copied through the DP. I know it's hard to believe but it is the same original.

    KM3051ci DP Color1.JPGKM3051ci DP Color2.JPG

    As you can see I used scans and my Colorpic tool to break down the RGB/CMYK color numbers of each area. I expected to find some interesting pattern, for example: 22% too much cyan across the board or 12% less yellow across the board. Wrong, it's far more interesting. Each color defined in the pixs are uniquely off color. Most have 40% or more too much yellow, but some have 24% less yellow. It's as though the color catalog was randomly re-organized.

    What have I done?

    First I thought that it was possible that when light source #1 reached the slit glass, it was tipping a mirror, or perhaps a loose mirror ... something like that. I checked the wire ropes, tension, mirror mounts, spring clips, focus adjustments and screws, cleaned the ribbon cable ends and re-seated the connectors.

    Second I thought that perhaps the RADF was somehow out of adjustment: height, rotation, etc. So I adjusted the rotation, checked the height, and moved back the black strip ~1.3mm in case the scanner was catching sight of the edge of the strip.

    Third I printed off the Maintenance Report and picked out any setting or adjustment that might have anything to do with DP image quality, and read about each one.
    U063 only made a difference at it's highest setting (18), then it started to shade worse.
    U068 didn't really have any quality affect between -15 and +38. Below -15 light source #1 is starting to scan the underside of the white plate, rather than the slit glass. Surprisingly, this is the best way to align the RADF with the slit glass. Set to -14 you get shading that can be made even front to back by rotating the DP. It's a ton easier than using a small ruler and flashlight, and trying to read the small marks on the ruler from 15" away, in the dark.
    U074 is designed to compensate for background from light blue originals. At it's highest setting +3 it removes most of the yellow/green background, but does nothing for the totally off color representation.
    U425 stores some sort of color settings. I made some pretty radical changes that had no effect on the problem.
    U429 didn't seem to change anything, off the glass or through the DP. The manual is a little confusing here. In one place you think the setting ranges from -5 to +5. In another place it seems to read 1 to 10. It's the latter.

    Fourth I went through the user original settings to see if I could change the issue at all.
    Original Type-defaulted to Text/Photo, Book/Magazine. Both the Text settings have less yellow/green background. The Graphics/Printer setting and the Custom1 setting made it much worse, more like a heavy lime green background.
    Background Density Adjustment-defaulted to Off. Set to Auto entirely removes the yellow/green background but does nothing for the off colors.
    Prevent Bleed Through-default to Off. Set to On removes some of the yellow/green background.

    Fifth I reloaded firmware.

    Conclusions?
    I've decided that the mechanical scanner and CCD are OK.
    I believe that the color problem is electronic. Image processing, at the ISC (scanner PWB) or Main PWB.
    I've ordered the ISC PWB, and the two Charts to calibrate the CCD.

    So maybe you read to the end of all my thoughts here. I feel like I'm missing something. What did I miss? =^..^=
    If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
    1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
    2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
    3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
    4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
    5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

    blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=
  • Hansoon
    Field Supervisor

    Site Contributor
    2,500+ Posts
    • Sep 2007
    • 3347

    #2
    Re: Wanna see some cool copies?

    Seeing that thread title I was hoping for some decent porn, but no.........

    Sorry cant't help here but would like to know what model of machine this is.

    Hans
    “ Sent from my Intel 80286 using MS-DOS 2.0
    https://www.copytechnet.com/images/smilies/biggrin.png

    Comment

    • NeoMatrix
      Senior Tech.

      2,500+ Posts
      • Nov 2010
      • 3514

      #3
      Re: Wanna see some cool copies?

      Could it be something like an alpha channel grayscale adjustment?
      User tools |calibration |grayscale ?
      Inauguration to the "AI cancel-culture" fraternity 1997...
      •••••• •••[§]• |N | € | o | M | Δ | t | π | ¡ | x | •[§]••• ••••••

      Comment

      • wragsdale
        Trusted Tech

        100+ Posts
        • Jul 2014
        • 188

        #4
        Re: Wanna see some cool copies?

        I'm not sure if you noticed this, but your problem copy looks hue-shifted somehow.

        I overlayed an adjusted and cropped image of your original area above the problem copy (original on the top, modified image on bottom). The hue was shifted down 120 degrees and the saturation adjusted slightly to make up for some small lighting differences.

        KM3051ci DP Color Shift.JPG

        Comment

        • JVergin
          Service Tech / IT Rep

          100+ Posts
          • Jan 2009
          • 216

          #5
          Re: Wanna see some cool copies?

          U411 Needed.jpgU411 Needed!.jpg
          We experienced that same exact thing when we replaced an ISC board in a 2550ci. There was a yellowish background that looked identical to yours and the colors were completely out of wack. Other than that, it looked great! After replacing the board, the scanner had no idea what colors were what.

          In our case though, it was the same result from both the glass and the DP. Prints and internal prints were fine.

          What we had to do was use that 90 dollar test chart # 7505000005. In Maint mode U411 (Adjusting the scanner automatically) you can set the target value by either manually entering the numbers on the bottom of the chart, or letting it scan it and set it up automatically.

          I do notice in U411 that there is a separate adjustment for the DP, which says Do not use under the description for chart 1. Maybe if you have chart 2 302AC68243, you could try to run DP FaceUp (Chart 2) to set the target properly.
          Last edited by JVergin; 09-25-2014, 09:28 PM. Reason: Added Examples

          Comment

          • blackcat4866
            Master Of The Obvious

            Site Contributor
            10,000+ Posts
            • Jul 2007
            • 22929

            #6
            Re: Wanna see some cool copies?

            @wrangsdale: That's really interesting! What sort of software did you use to alter the the image color?

            @LVergin: The Charts didn't help with the original ISC PWB. With the board I also ordered a new set of charts, in case they were too dirty/worn. The new ISC improved the image immediately, but the directional lines in the gray were still invisible until I ran the U411 calibrations.
            =^..^=
            If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
            1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
            2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
            3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
            4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
            5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

            blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

            Comment

            • Iowatech
              Not a service manager

              2,500+ Posts
              • Dec 2009
              • 3930

              #7
              Re: Wanna see some cool copies?

              While it has been quite a while since I've ever worked on any Konica based equipment, could it be that the document feeder is now set up to default to fax or some other process for no apparent reason? I suppose scans from the document feeder could be taking a different path through image processing than scans off the platen glass if that's the case. While that's probably a pretty stupid idea, it could be a path you may wish to explore if nothing else works, I guess.
              Sorry if that was a waste of time.

              Comment

              • blackcat4866
                Master Of The Obvious

                Site Contributor
                10,000+ Posts
                • Jul 2007
                • 22929

                #8
                Re: Wanna see some cool copies?

                Originally posted by Iowatech
                While it has been quite a while since I've ever worked on any Konica based equipment, could it be that the document feeder is now set up to default to fax or some other process for no apparent reason? I suppose scans from the document feeder could be taking a different path through image processing than scans off the platen glass if that's the case. While that's probably a pretty stupid idea, it could be a path you may wish to explore if nothing else works, I guess.
                Sorry if that was a waste of time.
                It's fixed. It was the ISC PWB. My guess is that when the CCD registers the RGB data, it references some sort of color table. One table for the contact glass, and another table for the DP. Whatever form that data is stored as must somehow be corrupt, at least on the document processor side.

                The new ISC improved the image immediately, but the directional lines in the gray were still invisible until I ran the U411 calibrations.

                And it's a Kyocera, not Konica.

                And yes, it's definitely an image processing issue. =^..^=
                If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
                1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
                2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
                3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
                4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
                5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

                blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

                Comment

                • Hansoon
                  Field Supervisor

                  Site Contributor
                  2,500+ Posts
                  • Sep 2007
                  • 3347

                  #9
                  Re: Wanna see some cool copies?

                  ** Off Topic **

                  90 dollar test chart # 7505000005
                  Never heard of, would love to see a sample of that. What's so special about it?

                  Hans
                  “ Sent from my Intel 80286 using MS-DOS 2.0
                  https://www.copytechnet.com/images/smilies/biggrin.png

                  Comment

                  • JVergin
                    Service Tech / IT Rep

                    100+ Posts
                    • Jan 2009
                    • 216

                    #10
                    Re: Wanna see some cool copies?

                    Originally posted by Hansoon
                    ** Off Topic **



                    Never heard of, would love to see a sample of that. What's so special about it?

                    Hans
                    It's just a chart with color bars. The only special thing about it is on one side of the test chart, it has the exact values of each color in case you needed to manually enter each one. It even comes in a shiny cover sandwiched in between two cardboard pieces.

                    Comment

                    • blackcat4866
                      Master Of The Obvious

                      Site Contributor
                      10,000+ Posts
                      • Jul 2007
                      • 22929

                      #11
                      Re: Wanna see some cool copies?

                      Originally posted by JVergin
                      It's just a chart with color bars. The only special thing about it is on one side of the test chart, it has the exact values of each color in case you needed to manually enter each one. It even comes in a shiny cover sandwiched in between two cardboard pieces.
                      What's so special about it? Well it's the only way to calibrate the CCD. That's about it. =^..^=
                      If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
                      1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
                      2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
                      3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
                      4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
                      5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

                      blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

                      Comment

                      • Iowatech
                        Not a service manager

                        2,500+ Posts
                        • Dec 2009
                        • 3930

                        #12
                        Re: Wanna see some cool copies?

                        Originally posted by blackcat4866
                        It's fixed. It was the ISC PWB. My guess is that when the CCD registers the RGB data, it references some sort of color table. One table for the contact glass, and another table for the DP. Whatever form that data is stored as must somehow be corrupt, at least on the document processor side.

                        The new ISC improved the image immediately, but the directional lines in the gray were still invisible until I ran the U411 calibrations.

                        And it's a Kyocera, not Konica.

                        And yes, it's definitely an image processing issue. =^..^=
                        OOPS! I should have known that. Sorry.

                        Comment

                        • Kyo fan
                          Trusted Tech

                          250+ Posts
                          • Dec 2013
                          • 368

                          #13
                          Re: Wanna see some cool copies?

                          I must admit i never had something like this on any Kyocera color machine. Thanks for sharing blackcat.

                          Comment

                          • wragsdale
                            Trusted Tech

                            100+ Posts
                            • Jul 2014
                            • 188

                            #14
                            Re: Wanna see some cool copies?

                            Originally posted by blackcat4866
                            @wrangsdale: That's really interesting! What sort of software did you use to alter the the image color?
                            I used GIMP specifically for that image since it's what I have available at work. It's one of the better freeware image manipulation software out there.

                            Glad to hear that you solved it!

                            Comment

                            • fishleg
                              Trusted Tech

                              Site Contributor
                              250+ Posts
                              • Mar 2009
                              • 425

                              #15
                              Re: Wanna see some cool copies?

                              We have the exact same problem on a 8353ci. Engine board was swapped I think then it caused this.

                              The dp colours are fine duplex but anything that uses the platen glass has the weird purple tint to everything.

                              The board you are talking about is the one directly connected to the lens under the glass?

                              Comment

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