Complex PDF's.....REALLY?!....DOH!

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  • qbert69
    Service Manager

    1,000+ Posts
    • Mar 2013
    • 1152
    #1

    Complex PDF's.....REALLY?!....DOH!

    Not sure if this is a Rant, Rave or Simple Observation In Regards to User's Stupidity!

    Anyway...customer can't print PDF (...on an Apple Computer no less!!!)...I show up, look at the document size and notice that the PDF document size is almost 40 MB and for only 10 pages of letter size printing, that's a little bit steep on size!

    Well I go and download a piece of software that runs on Apple called "File Juicer" to run in demo mode:

    File Juicer - Extract images from PDF, PowerPoint, Word, Excel and other Files on Mac OS X

    What this software does is strip every component out of whatever container format that you drop into it!...in this instance, the PDF container.

    What the result was a folder with other subfolders containing html, jpeg, tiff files and such....some of which were actual alpha mask transparency channels from whatever page layout software...I think Adobe Page Maker!

    This PDF was NEVER flattened by the designer on output to PDF!!!....NEVER!....just ticks me off!

    If you don't know what *flattening layers* means, just google it....basically combining all those layers down in to one so it is a single image!.....The designer had the software that would do this, but the person that was printing had no knowledge of this issue!

    Long story short...MFP's DO NOT flatten layers!!! (I knew that, but the customer didn't want to hear it...they had the song and dance of "oh it worked last time!")

    I don't care (in my mind I thought!)...they need to know what they're dealing with and FIX IT THEMSELVES!!!...it's the software....NOT THE MFP!!!






    PS--the customer was able to print the original layered PDF from Apple Preview, but the color was *off*...desaturated and muted (which I would guess to be a color space/gamut issue in how Adobe and Apple programs handle color differently....just goes to show it's the program, not the MFP! Apparently Apple Preview knows to flatten layers before it sends it to the MFP since it didn't take long to print at all!
    REACH FOR THE STARS!!!
    Konica Minolta Planetariums!
    https://www.konicaminolta.com/planet...gma/index.html
    Tags: None
    • CompyTech
      Super Tech

      500+ Posts
      • Feb 2011
      • 706
      #2
      Re: Complex PDF's.....REALLY?!....DOH!

      Got to love customers that call you for help, but think they are the experts when it does not work for them and get shown they're wrong.

        Comment

        • blackcat4866
          Master Of The Obvious

          Site Contributor
          10,000+ Posts
          • Jul 2007
          • 22929
          #3
          Re: Complex PDF's.....REALLY?!....DOH!

          That's really interesting qbert. I've noticed the "flattening" message before, but had no idea what it meant.

          My interesting PDF was spooling out at 300MB for a single page. The original image was taken with a special camera, and the page size was 48" x 60". Even better: it was a government job (that is it was personal printing brought to work since her personal inkjet couldn't handle it).

          Geez, I wonder why it takes a long time to spool ... ? =^..^=
          If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
          1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
          2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
          3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
          4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
          5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

          blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

            Comment

            • qbert69
              Service Manager

              1,000+ Posts
              • Mar 2013
              • 1152
              #4
              Re: Complex PDF's.....REALLY?!....DOH!

              Originally posted by blackcat4866
              That's really interesting qbert. I've noticed the "flattening" message before, but had no idea what it meant.

              My interesting PDF was spooling out at 300MB for a single page. The original image was taken with a special camera, and the page size was 48" x 60". Even better: it was a government job (that is it was personal printing brought to work since her personal inkjet couldn't handle it).

              Geez, I wonder why it takes a long time to spool ... ? =^..^=
              My guess is that is was a special camera such as the "Lytro":

              Raytrix | 3D light field camera technology
              https://lytro.com/
              The Raytrix Light Field Technology provides 3D capture and high resolution with different one shot cameras. 3D camera | Light field camera


              ...or a *special* camera such as this!:

              The Invisible Camera - Harnessing the Power of Ambient Light


              CHEERS!





              PS--that 48"x60" is a plotter sized print!...if printed out on a *regular* MFP that prints max of 11"x17", then it could be print tiled and spliced out of a program such as photoshop!...I've done that many times on a light table!....works pretty darn well!...learned that in graphic design class!
              REACH FOR THE STARS!!!
              Konica Minolta Planetariums!
              https://www.konicaminolta.com/planet...gma/index.html

                Comment

                • NeoMatrix
                  Senior Tech.

                  2,500+ Posts
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 3514
                  #5
                  Re: Complex PDF's.....REALLY?!....DOH!

                  The process of layering graphics format is more specific to vector graphics as apposed to single layer raster graphics.
                  The trade off. Raster graphics do not scale up very well and loose image quality quickly. Raster graphics scaling up or down is a lossy format.
                  Vector graphics on the other hand will scale down/up to a very large size without loss. An example of vector graphics scaling is using true type fonts in your applications. True type fonts will scale to a huge size without loss of image quality. PDF files rely heavy on vector graphics which is good for DXF file formats.
                  Most of the older style Ricoh manuals are well written using vector DXF style line graphics which allows them to scale up or zoom in for more accurate detail without image loss.

                  So.... If you send a print job to the MFD with scaled up vector graphics and then the Application or MFD compresses the vector graphics down into a single raster layer, you are going to get a very large file to print. Office staff should learn to construct PDF files with correctly scaled and cropped images, and for all intents an purposes avoid using Word Processor applications which convert/scale down images on the screen but insert the document as full size when converting those documents to PDF. Unless the print job is being printed for posters or advertisement billboards there is really no need for PDF document raster images greater than 640x480px screen resolution in size.

                  Hint: Any 10-12 mega pixel camera image should be reduced in image size to 25% (1/4) it's original size using any high end Photoshop style Application.
                  Inauguration to the "AI cancel-culture" fraternity 1997...
                  •••••• •••[§]• |N | € | o | M | Δ | t | π | ¡ | x | •[§]••• ••••••

                    Comment

                    • qbert69
                      Service Manager

                      1,000+ Posts
                      • Mar 2013
                      • 1152
                      #6
                      Re: Complex PDF's.....REALLY?!....DOH!

                      Originally posted by NeoMatrix
                      The process of layering graphics format is more specific to vector graphics as apposed to single layer raster graphics.
                      The trade off. Raster graphics do not scale up very well and loose image quality quickly. Raster graphics scaling up or down is a lossy format.
                      Vector graphics on the other hand will scale down/up to a very large size without loss. An example of vector graphics scaling is using true type fonts in your applications. True type fonts will scale to a huge size without loss of image quality. PDF files rely heavy on vector graphics which is good for DXF file formats.
                      Most of the older style Ricoh manuals are well written using vector DXF style line graphics which allows them to scale up or zoom in for more accurate detail without image loss.

                      So.... If you send a print job to the MFD with scaled up vector graphics and then the Application or MFD compresses the vector graphics down into a single raster layer, you are going to get a very large file to print. Office staff should learn to construct PDF files with correctly scaled and cropped images, and for all intents an purposes avoid using Word Processor applications which convert/scale down images on the screen but insert the document as full size when converting those documents to PDF. Unless the print job is being printed for posters or advertisement billboards there is really no need for PDF document raster images greater than 640x480px screen resolution in size.

                      Hint: Any 10-12 mega pixel camera image should be reduced in image size to 25% (1/4) it's original size using any high end Photoshop style Application.
                      .SVG file extension = Scalable Vector Graphics...Also .EPS = Encapsulated Post Script scale nicely too!

                      About enlarging Rasterized Graphics, the ONLY piece of software that does the job nicely is the
                      Fred Miranda SI Pro Photoshop Plug-In (SI = Stair Interpolation):

                      FM Software

                      I have tested this plugin and it works GREAT!...I took some "for placement only" photos from a low-resolution image library and upsized them...these were train/locomotive photos!...The results were impressive to say the least!




                      PS--there is a local print shop that has to deal with idiot customers low resolution photo submissions...I told them about this plug-in, but did they listen?!--Hell No!
                      REACH FOR THE STARS!!!
                      Konica Minolta Planetariums!
                      https://www.konicaminolta.com/planet...gma/index.html

                        Comment

                        • slimslob
                          Retired

                          Site Contributor
                          25,000+ Posts
                          • May 2013
                          • 36797
                          #7
                          Re: Complex PDF's.....REALLY?!....DOH!

                          With most software, the print preview feature does flatten the image and you can then print from the preview page. This is why when we were having a lot of trouble with websites with moving images and other newer font characters causing MFP devices to crash, printing from preview would work. In the past, I have had luck in the past changing graphics setting on Ricoh MFP between raster and vector for documents that seem to take forever to spool and process.

                            Comment

                            • qbert69
                              Service Manager

                              1,000+ Posts
                              • Mar 2013
                              • 1152
                              #8
                              Re: Complex PDF's.....REALLY?!....DOH!

                              Originally posted by slimslob
                              With most software, the print preview feature does flatten the image and you can then print from the preview page. This is why when we were having a lot of trouble with websites with moving images and other newer font characters causing MFP devices to crash, printing from preview would work. In the past, I have had luck in the past changing graphics setting on Ricoh MFP between raster and vector for documents that seem to take forever to spool and process.
                              Kinda funny that you say that!...customer was using an Apple computer and OS X has an App called "Preview" which is integrated in with the OS....and it printed just fine with the "Preview" App!....although the color was a bit "muted" and de-saturated!

                              At home, I design a Yearbook for my wife's school, using this software:

                              Comic Life 3 for Mac & Windows | plasq.com

                              Cool piece of software and always improving! But with this software, I ALWAYS save/export as a flattened PDF before printing...and it turns out GREAT!!!

                              I use Mac (PowerPC OS X 10.4) & PC, but if I design something on the Mac, I will transfer it to the PC (Win 7 x64)...it seems to handle the print better and faster!

                              I also lighten the shadows on photo prints since we are dealing with reflected light and not transmitted light...saves toner on the density!


                              REACH FOR THE STARS!!!
                              Konica Minolta Planetariums!
                              https://www.konicaminolta.com/planet...gma/index.html

                                Comment

                                • allan
                                  RTFM!!

                                  5,000+ Posts
                                  • Apr 2010
                                  • 5459
                                  #9
                                  Re: Complex PDF's.....REALLY?!....DOH!

                                  I have a customer that does not understand why a 20Mb PDF with poorly scanned data takes a half hour to print. It spools to 600Mb....
                                  Whatever

                                    Comment

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