I hate it when you guess.

[fixthecopier]

Yes, that is what was said to me when I ask her to order a part and couldn't give a 100% guarantee that it would fix the issue. I bite my tongue a lot. It occurred to me later that our job sometimes is making the best guess. Even the service manuals do it. You have code xyz and the manual says change this, when that doesn't work change this and then that. If that doesn't work, check bulletins and call tech support so they can check the same bulletins you just checked.

My problem is a KMBS 423 at a construction site that was jamming from both trays. The machine stays covered in dust. As most Konica techs would do, I changed the 1 way clutches. It fixed nothing. I then went for the electronic clutch on the rear of the assembly. We didn't have them and I ask her to order. That is when I got the statement. They didn't want me to remove an assembly from a working used machine just to test it. I lucked up and found an old Bz 42 with the same clutches. I changed them both and it fixed the tray 2 issue. I am still working on tray 1.

I can't wait for them to build a copier and issue a manual that is cut and dry. Every problem has 1 guaranteed solution.

[copyman]

Re: I hate it when you guess.

Yea, I agree the manuals are a little vague. I think part of it is the language translation process. I look at the manual as a reference, to point me in right direction. Then I have to do some troubleshooting & detective work on my own. Damn wish it was easy as looking at a manual and start replacing parts listed! Would be replacing a lot of main boards, because that is always on the list

I can't charge my customers for me guessing at parts or worse if it is under contract and losing profit paying for parts your not sure are going to fix it ! Fortunately I usually have a few parts machines to try parts from. I have even bought machines just for parts.

I won't take a job if I can't give a firm price. If I'm wrong I have to eat it. Just the way I do business. Fortunately doesn't happen often.

[KenB]

Re: I hate it when you guess.

I've always looked at main controller boards this way: You replace them just to prove it's not the problem.

Not that they don't go bad, because they sure do, but rarely is it the fix.

More than I can count, I've seen techs order $1000 boards when the problem is a 79 cent photointerruptor.

[fixthecopier]

Re: I hate it when you guess.

I've always looked at main controller boards this way: You replace them just to prove it's not the problem.

Not that they don't go bad, because they sure do, but rarely is it the fix.

More than I can count, I've seen techs order $1000 boards when the problem is a 79 cent photointerruptor.

I agree, you swap boards because it is a variable. The tough call is on a lot of new machines, the board is married to the machine. No more guessing. No swapping with parts machines. We recently had a new e-machine from KMBS. Would not boot out of the box. We changed every board and firmware with tech support involved the whole way. Never got it to boot. Took them 2 weeks to agree to take it back and replace it. That would be a nightmare a few months old with my shop eating it.

[theengel]

Re: I hate it when you guess.

Hey, it's part of the job. Most conceivable problems can be caused by a number of things, and you can't always tell something is bad by looking at it. You either start with the cheapest, the most common, or the easiest... or a combination of the three. I usually give a line something like this: "You've got a bad doohickey. Sometimes the board that controls the doohickey goes bad as well, but we won't know if it's bad until we get a working doohickey in there."

You think we got it bad. Imagine being a doctor--they essentially do the same thing. Only they don't have a stock of old parts they can 'try.'

[kuby]

Re: I hate it when you guess.

Yea but we are different that doctors. If we don't fix it the first time, we don't charge them to come back and do it again. Try that with a doctor.

[subaro]

Re: I hate it when you guess.

I've always looked at main controller boards this way: You replace them just to prove it's not the problem.

Not that they don't go bad, because they sure do, but rarely is it the fix.

More than I can count, I've seen techs order $1000 boards when the problem is a 79 cent photointerruptor.

I think the above statement is right on the money. As techs we go through the decision making process each day to solve problems. The methods in one's troubleshooting will determine success. Many techs i know hates service manuals, when it's there to help them. The manuals are guides and not exacting, so the human analytical machine will take over in the final determination.
The annoying problems where most of the time you do not require parts, but finding the mouse in the machine that is causing the squeek. NOISE

The poster does have a valid point when referring to the non-exchange or swapping of board like in the Lexmarks and espcially when the boards are costly. I dislike when you cannot swap out a board

[mikadonovan]

Re: I hate it when you guess.

I can't wait for them to build a copier and issue a manual that is cut and dry. Every problem has 1 guaranteed solution.

Jerry, if they did that then all the training and experience you have gained over the years that has turned you into a analytical machine-fixing superhuman would be wasted

[subaro]

Re: I hate it when you guess.

Jerry, if they did that then all the training and experience you have gained over the years that has turned you into a analytical machine-fixing superhuman would be wasted

Yeh, and buy kyocera. 3yrs bumper to bumper warranty, by then you may know most of the in and out of the machine. just a plug for kyocera here. Kyocera new lineup is a tech dream, only to see if they would hold up to the rigors of the likes of school boards districts.

[jmaister]

Re: I hate it when you guess.

Yeh, and buy kyocera. 3yrs bumper to bumper warranty, by then you may know most of the in and out of the machine. just a plug for kyocera here. Kyocera new lineup is a tech dream, only to see if they would hold up to the rigors of the likes of school boards districts.

The 2 series?

Did they fix the fuser, the cheap paper cassette, and the consumables that dont last til rated?

[Ctl-Alt-Del]

Re: I hate it when you guess.

Yeh, and buy kyocera. 3yrs bumper to bumper warranty, by then you may know most of the in and out of the machine. just a plug for kyocera here. Kyocera new lineup is a tech dream, only to see if they would hold up to the rigors of the likes of school boards districts.

The other good thing is Kyocera allows sales returns on unused parts with no restocking fee, helps if you not 100% sure which part is at fault but still want to show up with the right one. The cost of return shipping is much less than a 2nd return trip if you guess wrong.

[KenB]

Re: I hate it when you guess.

The board repair companies get a very high percentage of boards for repair that they find no issue with.

Of course, a lot of that happens when the tag says "Check complete", or is blank.

If you send a board in for repair, provide as much detail as possible. Attach a separate sheet if necessary.

[roho]

Re: I hate it when you guess.

Many issues with today's technology aren't so cut and dried. The manufacturers support often can't single out a direct cause, often it could be a expensive controller or another expensive pcb. I've seen numerous faults where no error codes are generated, turns out the faulty component would have triggered errors on previous devices. Not having a technical manager makes the sledding even more difficult, he thinks a large scale proof printer should run as long as a smaller office printer, especially the cost. He now has a tenuous relationship with the support team, thanks to some tersely worded emails. We often resort to "guessing", however I try everything I can think of to make the guessing the best I can. New devices go alot further in between routine calls, however when there is a problem it is often much more complex then the run of them a few years ago. You can't even swap out many pcb boards now from a "spare" machine these days like you used to be able to, and the manuals are now often filled with bafflegab type translations, typos, or wrong info at times. I know many customers see you working on a problem and are amazed how much is involved with some of these devices once they see the back covers off, a wall of circuit boards and colored wires.

Having a co-tech guessing, truly guessing is not fun at all, seemingly throwing anything at the wall, not reading bulletins etc. then you're the one who gets to finish the call. If only it was as easy as everyone seems to think it should be!

[copyman]

Re: I hate it when you guess.

Fortunately I haven't had to guess much in last several years. I work mostly on Kon / Min and find many models have the same issues. I always try and have a parts machine if I do need a board or oddball part. Since I sell mainly off-lease machines they are already 2 or 3 yrs old and by then you know what problems to look for, or more importantly what machines to stay away from! I have a very good friend that is Service Director for a large K/M dealership, he gives me a heads up on what machines have worked well. I must say there haven't been many bad K/M models over the last 10 yrs. I know I'm going to regret saying this but I haven't replaced a main board in probably 2+ yrs! *Knock on wood*.

Most of my calls are for PF rollers, consumables, network issues, some cheap plastic piece broken by customer, etc etc. Not many electronic issues.

I can't be this lucky !!! I'm sure it's that K/M boxes are that good

[nottoosharp]

Re: I hate it when you guess.

The 2 series?

Did they fix the fuser, the cheap paper cassette, and the consumables that dont last til rated?

Did they make it so you need to Leston 3 pounds of C-4 to get the covers off yet?


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