Getting REALLY TIRED of...

[mtech]

FIRST POST: I need manual and firmware!
REPLY: I need money!
SECOND POST: I will give you money for manual and firmware?
REPLY: No, I just need money! Please send!

Now that makes me feel better. If only it were a real thread.

[jonezy999]

The best thing about this site is most of the members are techs who spend time in the field. It really is a host of information straight from the techs on the job, not pencil pushers or someone who did run ups for two years and then went to tech support to further burden us with bullshit. I find solutions here that are not mentioned in service manuals and bulletins. As for the I NEEDers, Im starting to like the idea of sending them misleading info, that way, atleast when it all turns to shit, someone who knows what they are doing will have a good look at it.

[Stirton.M]

selling copyrighted material is just wrong.
OC

And here I thought I was unique in that opinion.

Granted, factory authorized from a Konica Minolta perspective is simply that the techs are familiarized with the machines through training. I might learn something new from time to time in the courses, but most of the technology is pretty common from one machine to the next, and I am certain, from one company to the next. You see one, you've seen em all pretty much covers it. The training simply is a formal introduction. I do not mind ad hoc in the field when doing things, but I do prefer some orientation of the new product. There is nothing worse than looking the fool when a customer is looking over your shoulder as you fumble through basic dog stuff on a new machine.

As for manuals being given, I have no problem posting a few pages from the manual that may help someone with a complex series of instructions. There are some out there who "think" they can handle it, and I am willing to let them dig that hole. If they mess it up, that means some tech will get a call to fix that mess. Like the one in that link given earlier. WTF was he thinking, trying to cheat a counter? Stupid is as stupid does.

[Stirton.M]

Im starting to like the idea of sending them misleading info

*evil laughing*

[paulg]

I noticed Ricoh in the Uk at least seem to be tighten up on access to manuals and access to their websites. Ex work mates who have gone off to dealers seem to be complaining its far harder to get hold of manuals, access to Tessa unless they are working for an approved dealer.
On the Jan 2010 DVDs I saw they had added a Copyright mark possibly they are going to clamp down on the resellers?

[mrwho]

I monitor the sites I have used and try to help when I can. I don't doubt that I have benefited far greater than I have benefited others, but I do try and reciprocate.

Same here. I coulnd't have said it better.

[officeboy]

I'm new to the forum. I am also one of the " I need guys" although I didn't quite say it that way. I asked for help. I asked where to find information, I posted offering to contact for service one of you fine 'craftsmen of the cartridge' for your assistance... I also searched the threads.

Here is my story, flame me if you must... I first called around for help, we have had a few "authorized" and "trained" people out to troubleshoot our particular issue over the three years that we have had this intermittent problem and have had the same issue occur over and over - even after paying to have it fixed. While I certainly am not trained like many of you, I have been around too... I am new to working on THIS particular machine, however I have been doing just this thing my entire life, not as often, not as well and definitely not in as little time as someone with training. If something was broke, I somehow got selected, volunteered, guilted, or bribed into wasting my evenings or weekends installing, troubleshooting, or rebuilding various printers and copiers for just about every friend or family member who owns a business. Every time I have advocated to the people that ask me for help that they need to call the professionals.

Quite honestly, after reading this thread, I have serious doubts that all of you fellas are professionals. (hear me out) I am an engineer by trade, one who works in an industry where we have a lot of craft labor, guys that are smart enough to be doctors and guys that have a hard time sweeping the floor. Its also where I started out, sweeping the floor and having a hard time doing it... I am sure, like a lot of the guys working on their tools that I work with, most of you are professionals with the exception of the guy that says, and the one that seconds' his notion, that he would intentionally mislead someone else.

Its called integrity, the folks that provide bad information and intentionally cause damage are a cancer to the honest working man. They create more damage to the any industry than any good they think they are creating. How do I know? Well, I am sure many of you have heard one of the million stories of guys leaving bolts or a wire or something loose in hopes that they will be called back and will be creating more work for them coming back to fix it. Perhaps your industry has their own tales... and perhaps that works in the tech world (as my machine still is not right). However, in the areas I have experience, it causes people to loose contracts, the workers who work on those areas not to be called back for any jobs, anymore. It causes a backlash through the labor halls and creates a black cloud that stays with members of that entire labor organization. What it is exactly is just a story. The guys that work hard for a living, figured out long ago that you make more money by being professional, honest and having integrity than setting error traps and aligning people with failure.

Flame me if you must, but if you've been around anywhere, I am sure you would agree. Guys like the fella above who said he'd provide bad information, and the fella who liked his opinion, joke or not - its a bad practice.

I came here looking for help. Aparently by reading above, if I'm not part of the club I shouldn't be able to get it. You have to remember that people that don't speak your technical language may not know how to ask for what they are looking to get fixed. I agree that you should not turn someone loose with the keys to the castle, I also dont' think you should give away your work. Finding that fine line is often an interesting process.

To those of you (and most don't even realize) that have provided help to me many times through your trials, explainations and suggestions - Thank you.

To those of you that lie, cheat and steal - enjoy the unemployment line you'll find it soon enough.

[mrwho]

I agree wholeheartedly with your entire post, officeboy, but I'm sure - and someone correct me if I'm wrong - that those who said something in the line of "give'em the wrong firmware" mentioned it to those who, right on the first post, say "I want!" without pleases, whys or buts.

Of course (almost) everyone here came here first because they had a problem - that was my case - and, perhaps except for the nice founders of this forum, I doubt that many said "Hey, here's a nice forum! Let me just register so that I can help people!". But - and that's the true spirit - they got what they needed and then started to give back some help.

But there are good and bad ways of asking for stuff - and if a bad way can be excused when you have a couple of hundred of posts and some reputation on your profile, if you're a first-poster then the good way is generally the way to go. And if that first-poster is posting to ask for help fixing some damage he did himself because he tried to fix it to save some bucks, and refuses advices like "you better call a trained technician" in order to save some bucks...

[RRodgers]

Usually these people don't even have there profile info put in. Like what area they are in. That helps, I've offered to go out and personally help someone if they live close enough (out of our service area for the company I work for) I feel if you are really seriously going to offer help an want help and be apart of the forum you'd take the time to put in some info or at least post in other topics, besides your first and ONLY post is... "GIVE ME" or even better (as of late) something like... Hi kind sirs I have firmware for a machine.

[Oze]

I'm new to the forum. I am also one of the " I need guys" although I didn't quite say it that way. I asked for help. I asked where to find information, I posted offering to contact for service one of you fine 'craftsmen of the cartridge' for your assistance... I also searched the threads.

Here is my story, flame me if you must... I first called around for help, we have had a few "authorized" and "trained" people out to troubleshoot our particular issue over the three years that we have had this intermittent problem and have had the same issue occur over and over - even after paying to have it fixed. While I certainly am not trained like many of you, I have been around too... I am new to working on THIS particular machine, however I have been doing just this thing my entire life, not as often, not as well and definitely not in as little time as someone with training. If something was broke, I somehow got selected, volunteered, guilted, or bribed into wasting my evenings or weekends installing, troubleshooting, or rebuilding various printers and copiers for just about every friend or family member who owns a business. Every time I have advocated to the people that ask me for help that they need to call the professionals.

Quite honestly, after reading this thread, I have serious doubts that all of you fellas are professionals. (hear me out) I am an engineer by trade, one who works in an industry where we have a lot of craft labor, guys that are smart enough to be doctors and guys that have a hard time sweeping the floor. Its also where I started out, sweeping the floor and having a hard time doing it... I am sure, like a lot of the guys working on their tools that I work with, most of you are professionals with the exception of the guy that says, and the one that seconds' his notion, that he would intentionally mislead someone else.

Its called integrity, the folks that provide bad information and intentionally cause damage are a cancer to the honest working man. They create more damage to the any industry than any good they think they are creating. How do I know? Well, I am sure many of you have heard one of the million stories of guys leaving bolts or a wire or something loose in hopes that they will be called back and will be creating more work for them coming back to fix it. Perhaps your industry has their own tales... and perhaps that works in the tech world (as my machine still is not right). However, in the areas I have experience, it causes people to loose contracts, the workers who work on those areas not to be called back for any jobs, anymore. It causes a backlash through the labor halls and creates a black cloud that stays with members of that entire labor organization. What it is exactly is just a story. The guys that work hard for a living, figured out long ago that you make more money by being professional, honest and having integrity than setting error traps and aligning people with failure.

Flame me if you must, but if you've been around anywhere, I am sure you would agree. Guys like the fella above who said he'd provide bad information, and the fella who liked his opinion, joke or not - its a bad practice.

I came here looking for help. Aparently by reading above, if I'm not part of the club I shouldn't be able to get it. You have to remember that people that don't speak your technical language may not know how to ask for what they are looking to get fixed. I agree that you should not turn someone loose with the keys to the castle, I also dont' think you should give away your work. Finding that fine line is often an interesting process.

To those of you (and most don't even realize) that have provided help to me many times through your trials, explainations and suggestions - Thank you.

To those of you that lie, cheat and steal - enjoy the unemployment line you'll find it soon enough.

A tech giving you advice on how to empty a waste toner container is one thing...a tech giving you advice on how to realign the lasers on a color copier is(I'm sure you would agree) another entirely.
When I MYSELF give advice to people I will take into consideration as to whether or not they're a Tech or an end user and gear my advice accordingly.
I tend to agree with you in that deliberately giving bad advice or leaving a job deliberately incomplete just to generate another call is any number of evils(bad business practice,fraud,immoral and the list goes on).
After I've been battling a tough call...one that has required more than one callback,the LAST thing I want to see in the immediate future is THAT particular machine again.
I'm tech that works for a dealer...NOT the dealer himself ...HE'S the one driving a Merc while I battle along in my pissy service vehicle...why in GOD'S name would I be trying to pad HIS coffers and make HIM richer?
It's not like the dealers pass on their winfalls to the techs...!!!
I think I speak for the other techs in that we ALWAYS try for a first time fix...sure...sometimes we get it wrong...or we have to wait on an ordered part...both of these things will require return calls to the customers and some things just can't be helped.

[Stirton.M]

most of you are professionals with the exception of the guy that says, and the one that seconds' his notion, that he would intentionally mislead someone else.

I am a professional at my job. I do it very well and exceed the customer's expectations.

That said, I provide help here for those asking for help, I am not paid here to do that, let alone be polite while doing it.

What I will NEVER do is provide them with system code or firmware or manuals. As far as I am concerned, that is the domain of the technicians authorized to do the job. An automotive shop would have the same attitude on such things.

There are some who ask questions and engage in a conversation. Then there are those who ask and they may get, and we will never hear from them again. My mother would call that rude, poor etiquette. In fact, I have one a couple guys trying to pump me in private messages for proprietary information, and my patience with them is wearing extremely thin, such that I am seriously considering giving them misleading information. When you have said no, that information cannot be given out so many times, if they do not get the hint, stronger measures are needed. And to me, misleading information would be directing them to another forum (entirely different website) for the answer.

[prntrfxr]

I don't have a problem with someone asking for help. I do have a problem with people just wanting an answer and not trying on their own to troubleshoot the problem (note: troubleshooting is not repairing. that is 2 entirely different things). I rarely have a pat answer for them. I give them the steps to troubleshoot, but i'm not the one looking at the machine, so I can't see what is going on. Troubleshooting is like going to the doctor's office. When they ask how you're feeling and you don't tell them all the symptoms, they can't make a good diagnosis. The more information a person can give to assist us the better. I've given all the steps to solve problems and the person got upset with me because the resolution was not one of the steps. The individual, however, omitted things that he tried, when the problem actually occurred (after he replaced a board) and other symptoms, that would have led me to adding that to my steps. As for firmware, I don't have that problem as the manufacturer of the machines I work on makes these available free on their website. If you are not a tech or you do not have experience in performing firmware upgrades you can render a machine inoperable (this has happened with experienced techs who have problems reading and following directions). If you do that, it is YOUR problem not mine.

In defense of those who ask for help: I have worked for service companies that would not purchase service manuals (back then we couldn't download manuals via internet either, so manuals were full price from the vendor) or parts for machines other than the ones we were certified on, but they would expect us to fix them anyway. If we failed, we took the hit not the company (affected our paycheck). Just trying to get part numbers to order parts was a big deal. We didn't have a forum to go to when I was a rookie tech. I'm glad we have this forum.

I do, however, agree with others that it would help to explain where you're coming from, rather than just saying, "I need..." Reply how the fix turned out too. If a tech tells you get someone with more experience, DO IT! While the tech is there, ask politely if you can watch because you want to learn how things work (make sure you explain that and not let them think that you're watching for them to steal, break something or trying to critique them with a view to reporting them to their boss). He/she might even be willing to answer questions you have if you are polite and ask nicely. If it seems to upset him/her, back off and leave them alone. The next time it happens, it might be something you can do. If it is a difficult thing, you'll either call someone again or you'll need to make a career change to learn how it's done. I always enjoyed it if a client is genuinely interested in learning something about the machine. Those clients can make your job easier because they can have the machine half troubleshooted before you get there, you fix the machine in one trip, and everyone is happy. They are the kind who are eager to look wherever you tell them to and check things like flag motion or paper tray guides, etc... Saves time and makes repair more efficient.

[mjarbar]

If you are not a tech or you do not have experience in performing firmware upgrades you can render a machine inoperable (this has happened with experienced techs who have problems reading and following directions). If you do that, it is YOUR problem not mine.

This happened to me and I WAS following the instructions, I'm still getting the fallout from this today and that incident was two and a half years ago. The bloody thing hasn't been right since we got it working agian.

I agree with what a lot of people are saying here, we do this not because we have to but because we want to, at one time or another we have all had trouble and found help and want to pay back in kind. However there are limits, passing out something like service software can not only get the tech into trouble but the company he works for as well, obviously causing a lot more trouble than the original deed is worth.

So if someone says no, don't be offended - they are just trying to stay safe.

[mrwho]

Whar really gets to my nerves is the following:

User: "Hey, I need the manual for machine x!"
Me: "Okay, here you are."
User: "And I need the firmware too!"
Me: "Okay, here you go."
User: "Oh... how do I update the firmware?"

That's enough! They have the frigging manual, they have the firmware, what else? Do you want me to go there and do it for you? Screw it!

In the beginning I thought people were a bit too tight when they said they never gave manuals or firmware, but now I'm starting to understand them. Not that I don't give them if people ask nicely - I sometimes come here in search for them myself, for those machines I don't service too often - but if I've already handed you the tools, please take the time to read the effing thing!

[jonezy999]

Dear officeboy,
Fuck you, how you came to the conclusion that most of us here are not professionals baffles me. You even admit that you have no training in this field, yet feel you have the right to label us techs who actually know excactly what we are looking at as bad or unprofessional.
Further more you have completely missed the point of this thread.
Go and struggle to sweep the floor you professional engineer.