Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

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  • Ianizer
    Trusted Tech

    250+ Posts
    • Jul 2011
    • 380

    #1

    Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

    Being somewhat new to CPN, I try to mind my manners.
    Being not new to the industry, at times I may come off a bit gruff.
    So I post this at the risk of being branded a troll.

    (Incedentally, this topic has arisen in several threads -- generally having degraded off-topic to heated discussion of the matter -- but I've only seen one [an opposing view of my own] dedicated to the topic itself.)

    There's something I don't quite understand:

    This is a board for the free sharing of thoughts, ideas and suggestions. You may accept the information posted here, or not, at your own risk. (At least that is my take-away from the context of discussion combined with the board rules.)
    I happen to enjoy helping (as others I've read), so am open with sharing my knowledge and experience... Quite a generous offering considering the time, effort and personal monies we have dedicated to the endeavor.

    Intellectual Property is quite another matter.
    File data like Firmware or Software; Printed material like parts and technical manuals (now, through the miracle of technology, available in digital format for transfer and download); Utilities and tools like FW writers, uploaders, executable installers, etc. -- are Property. No different than a screwdriver, feed roller, or a laptop... And who would loan, or give, their favorite screwdriver to someone they've only just met on an internet forum?

    I don't mind sharing my interpretation of said intellectual property, as filtered through my own gray matter, but is some cases material to which I am privy is a product of passkeys I've earned through certifications payed for dollar and cent by my present employer. I consider it, at best, a violation of ethics to share whole documents and, at worst, embezelment to sell them. (If this is a concept foreign you, I recommend reading Louis L'amore's Riding For The Brand.) Any materials wholly my own, I doubt I would offer for free, without some barter, trade or other arrangement... Things like drivers and Users Manuals are often open-source, and I'm happy to provide links.

    I suspect that this is the situation of many CTN posters. Which brings me to my next point.

    I'm full aware that there are a number of indy's and small outfits that simply don't have access to some of the up-to-date material readily available to other, larger organizations. There are outlets for you.

    I won't mention him by name but one poster, in particular -- I've perused his website -- seems to me an honest businessperson offering a legitamate product at quite reasonable prices. I'm sure he's capable of defending himself, but I'm dismayed by the attacks that have been levied against him...

    I suggest one of these outets for purchasing necessary business products. And make no mistake: Software and Manuals are Products, same as the Sharpies and legal pads, chairs and cabinets that keep an office functioning.

    For the uninitiated, I think it's fair to explain ettiquette when they miss the mark. For those who just think I'm an idiot -- that's okay, because they'll probably be out of business soon after being busted for the pirated versions of Windows7 on their office computers...

    There's an old saying in the hands-on field:
    • Good
    • Cheap
    • Fast
    Pick two.

    [/rant]

    -I
    Last edited by Ianizer; 08-16-2011, 06:21 AM.
    My name Peggy.
    You got problem?
  • blackcat4866
    Master Of The Obvious

    Site Contributor
    10,000+ Posts
    • Jul 2007
    • 22930

    #2
    Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

    That's sound reasoning, and I've made similar comments for quite a while, but I think that you'll find that those arguing with you feel entitled, and if one person got that item free on one occasion, then everyone else should also.

    I agree with you heartily. I think you'll find, though, that they're not listening. =^..^=
    If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
    1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
    2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
    3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
    4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
    5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

    blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

    Comment

    • jpcopy
      Trusted Tech

      250+ Posts
      • Apr 2006
      • 256

      #3
      Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

      Lanizer
      are you sayin independents are Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders? we'll we got to start somewhere

      Comment

      • Hemlock
        Trusted Tech

        250+ Posts
        • Dec 2009
        • 432

        #4
        Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

        This unnamed member - does he/she/it pay for all the bits and pieces they offer or were some of them acquired through the goodness of others?

        When this person makes a sale, are they supposed to send a royalty or fee back to the entity that owns the copyright? Do they?
        “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” (Isaac Asimov)

        Comment

        • jpcopy
          Trusted Tech

          250+ Posts
          • Apr 2006
          • 256

          #5
          Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

          also on this note, firmware up grades should be free to anyone who owns the machine. machine owners should not have to pay for OEM mistakes

          Comment

          • JustManuals
            Field Supervisor

            5,000+ Posts
            • Jan 2006
            • 9838

            #6
            Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

            Originally posted by jpcopy
            Lanizer
            are you sayin independents are Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders? we'll we got to start somewhere

            He is not saying that at all.

            Comment

            • charm5496
              Service Manager

              Site Contributor
              1,000+ Posts
              • Apr 2008
              • 2387

              #7
              Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

              Originally posted by jpcopy
              also on this note, firmware up grades should be free to anyone who owns the machine. machine owners should not have to pay for OEM mistakes
              so if a customer buys a newer PC and the copier is older and needs "newer/updated" firmware to communicate properly it is my responsibility to give them the firmware without charge including my time and labor?
              Accidents don't just happen. They must be carelessly planned.

              Comment

              • blackcat4866
                Master Of The Obvious

                Site Contributor
                10,000+ Posts
                • Jul 2007
                • 22930

                #8
                Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

                Originally posted by charm5496
                so if a customer buys a newer PC and the copier is older and needs "newer/updated" firmware to communicate properly it is my responsibility to give them the firmware without charge including my time and labor?
                There are lots of qualifiers here.

                Firstly, did you sell the MFP?
                Second, are you maintaining the device under warranty or service agreement?
                Third, do you have an existing business relationship with the owner of the MFP?

                Any of these are perfectly good reasons for you to provide this service (updating firmware, that is) for your customer at no additional charge. The customer has every right to expect it. Now ... a bunch of additional IT work to accommodate the new PC? That's billable. You're not responsible for their PC's. =^..^=
                If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
                1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
                2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
                3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
                4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
                5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

                blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

                Comment

                • nmfaxman
                  Service Manager

                  Site Contributor
                  1,000+ Posts
                  • Feb 2008
                  • 1702

                  #9
                  Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

                  Originally posted by blackcat4866
                  There are lots of qualifiers here.

                  Now ... a bunch of additional IT work to accommodate the new PC? That's billable. You're not responsible for their PC's. =^..^=
                  I add more to the contract to cover network support. Otherwise it is $100.00 per hour, $200.00 if their IT person tried it first and screwed it up.
                  Why do they call it common sense?

                  If it were common, wouldn't everyone have it?

                  Comment

                  • Mr Spock
                    Vulcan Inventor of Death

                    1,000+ Posts
                    • Aug 2006
                    • 2064

                    #10
                    Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

                    Originally posted by jpcopy
                    machine owners should not have to pay for OEM mistakes
                    Some firmware is for "enhancements" or to fix Microsoft's screwups...
                    If I am on a call and the firmware is outdated I update as part of my SOP. Do I do this on all machines.. no, just the ones that need it to fix an issue, or is mandated by service support, or I feel will benefit myself or the customer by doing it. For example a stand alone copier without a finisher will be the last machine I will update unless it is a safety update or do to an issue that the customer is having.
                    And Star Trek was just a tv show...yeah right!

                    Comment

                    • Mr Spock
                      Vulcan Inventor of Death

                      1,000+ Posts
                      • Aug 2006
                      • 2064

                      #11
                      Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

                      Originally posted by blackcat4866
                      There are lots of qualifiers here.

                      Firstly, did you sell the MFP?
                      Second, are you maintaining the device under warranty or service agreement?
                      Third, do you have an existing business relationship with the owner of the MFP?

                      Any of these are perfectly good reasons for you to provide this service (updating firmware, that is) for your customer at no additional charge. The customer has every right to expect it. Now ... a bunch of additional IT work to accommodate the new PC? That's billable. You're not responsible for their PC's. =^..^=
                      Unfortunately I agree with you but my manager thinks the opposite on fiery's. A fiery will be patched free but will charge $150.00 per hour to "upgrade" the o/s to the newest version.
                      And Star Trek was just a tv show...yeah right!

                      Comment

                      • Mr Spock
                        Vulcan Inventor of Death

                        1,000+ Posts
                        • Aug 2006
                        • 2064

                        #12
                        Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

                        Originally posted by Ianizer
                        So I post this at the risk of being branded a troll.

                        I am worse than a troll....
                        And Star Trek was just a tv show...yeah right!

                        Comment

                        • Ianizer
                          Trusted Tech

                          250+ Posts
                          • Jul 2011
                          • 380

                          #13
                          Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

                          Oh my. I've gone and done it.

                          Originally posted by blackcat4866
                          That's sound reasoning, and I've made similar comments for quite a while, but I think that you'll find that those arguing with you feel entitled, and if one person got that item free on one occasion, then everyone else should also.

                          I agree with you heartily. I think you'll find, though, that they're not listening. =^..^=
                          Just getting it off my chest, shadowy kitty. I didn't expect to have drinks thrust at me and my back pounded cheerfully. :\
                          Neither was my plan to foster hate and discontent. Some agree, some don't.
                          Let's read on, shall we?

                          Originally posted by jpcopy
                          Lanizer
                          are you sayin independents are Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders? we'll we got to start somewhere
                          I can see where you may have misunderstood.

                          No, of course not. Small business is the backbone of my country. I applaud your efforts. It's unfortunate that you may find yourself in the dubious company of some who prefer not to pay for their goods.

                          My point is simply that the softwares, itellectual property and other materials, to which some seem to consider themselves entitled, is no different than a tool or a piece of office furnishing.

                          Things are tough all over; who would turn down a freebie! Indeed, even seek them. But to pretend a board like CTN is an entitlement to free goodies is just silly.

                          And let's not forget, the larger corporation, who seem to have unlimited access to the grand scope of All Things Copier, have payed dearly for that priviledge.


                          Originally posted by Hemlock
                          This unnamed member - does he/she/it pay for all the bits and pieces they offer or were some of them acquired through the goodness of others?

                          When this person makes a sale, are they supposed to send a royalty or fee back to the entity that owns the copyright? Do they?
                          I'm sure I don't know.
                          Is there something you'd like to share?



                          Originally posted by jpcopy
                          also on this note, firmware up grades should be free to anyone who owns the machine. machine owners should not have to pay for OEM mistakes
                          SW overwrites and patches are introduced for a variety of reasons.

                          Some add optional functionality. i.e., A function has been requested, or become popular enough, that it becomes sensible to offer it in a new SW configuration. Customers may purchase the upgrade at a cost...

                          If I buy a screwdriver with a bit set in the handle, and later discover it would be helpful to have a security bit (not included in the original set), I may return to the store seeking the new option...
                          The manufacturer has begun to offer an new style tool set including the security bit, since it has become such a popular item. I have the option of upgrading my entire set or obtaining the bit patch on the shelf...
                          Does the store owe me a bit?

                          ---

                          Some SW improves on an existing design...

                          My multimeter has an Ω function that shows "---" for infinity. The meter works well and was a good bargain.
                          Later I discovered the same model now offered has an ohm function that flashes a lemniscate and a diode mode with tone.
                          Does the store owe me a new meter?

                          ---

                          Some SW is special in nature and addresses very specific and entirely unforseen issues arising from interactions with SW that in new or was not in common use at the time of original release, or not originally approved for use with the device. These patches fix very unusual problems and might be obtained by my customers at no additional charge for the SW itself, but they will certainly pay me for my time... That is, pay my company, who in turn payes the OEM directly or indirectly for the SW.

                          ---

                          Some SW and hardware sets fix "bugs"; they're misses in developement; SNAFU.
                          Let's face it. The industry doesn't Alpha & Beta test like it once did (thus Fiery's, with auto-updates enabled, printing two pages worth of patches on the config sheet ).
                          R&D scrambles to correct the problem, while best covering their collective arses.
                          These are often FOC kits or SW upgrades designated either Mandatory, or As-Needed.
                          I'm happy to provide any open-source links.

                          ---

                          And so it was that my rep plumetted like Obama in a pre-election year...
                          -I
                          Last edited by Ianizer; 08-17-2011, 07:10 AM.
                          My name Peggy.
                          You got problem?

                          Comment

                          • jpcopy
                            Trusted Tech

                            250+ Posts
                            • Apr 2006
                            • 256

                            #14
                            Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

                            I'm just messin with ya mostly, Ianizer but this board can be used for lots of things. asking for freebies I have no problem with. if you get them great. if not look somewhere else or buy if you can. have sold for the most part used machines. been putting out used digitals from 2003. haven't had to do a firmware up grade in any to solve a problem. courxe I have stayed away from the ones that are always needing them. appears most if not all had the latest FW. anyhow keep on truckin

                            Comment

                            • Ianizer
                              Trusted Tech

                              250+ Posts
                              • Jul 2011
                              • 380

                              #15
                              Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

                              Originally posted by jpcopy
                              I'm just messin with ya mostly, Ianizer but this board can be used for lots of things. asking for freebies I have no problem with. if you get them great. if not look somewhere else or buy if you can. have sold for the most part used machines. been putting out used digitals from 2003. haven't had to do a firmware up grade in any to solve a problem. courxe I have stayed away from the ones that are always needing them. appears most if not all had the latest FW. anyhow keep on truckin
                              Indeed. Let's keep our tounges firmly planted in cheek, shall we?
                              Keep on keepin on.
                              -I
                              My name Peggy.
                              You got problem?

                              Comment

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