Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

[20YRSEXP]

Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

If you are thinking that software/firmware should be free then you probably never spent several weeks or months of work writing that program. Free to resolve problems to the people that bought the machine? Sure, but free to someone that wants to be paid for repairing the machine? That's another story. It may be free to the company that paid thru the nose to be an authorized dealer, but then again you paid up front for the right to the IP. But to download things that aren't shareware and expect to not pay for it is unreasonable. Intellectual property is the way things are going. If you don't think so take the time to read one of those legal agreements you click ok on so you can download something. You need to be a lawyer just to understand it and it is all about stopping people from using the IP for their own profit or misuse. No knock on the small guy, we all start somewhere, but just like you don't give away services when a customer says "it's just a cleaning, can you do it for free" the guy writing the software feels the same way. It's all about the mighty dollar, euro etc.

[Star]

Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

so if a customer buys a newer PC and the copier is older and needs "newer/updated" firmware to communicate properly it is my responsibility to give them the firmware without charge including my time and labor?

The firmware is the property of the copier manufacturer. The time and expertise to put it in the machine is yours to sell as you see fit.

[jpcopy]

Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

I only buy new cars and trade them in every 3 years and I only take them to the OEM dealer for any problems
NOT

[fixthecopier]

Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

I only buy new cars and trade them in every 3 years and I only take them to the OEM dealer for any problems
NOT

???????????

[prntrfxr]

Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

Well I don't really have that problem. HP isn't selling their firmware. They put it on their website for free and anyone, including end users can download it for free. Then again, it is kind of use at your own risk. If you install it on the wrong machine, which is easy to do since HP has duplicate names for different machines (ie,...M4345 and 4345 mfp's which are different) and many end users have done it. Doing that renders the machine "inoperable" (HP's word not mine).

My opinion on whether or not firmware should be free:
If you have a machine with a Firmware DIMM, you may purchase that. I understand the pay for profit idea on the firmware, but generally firmware is to correct bugs and enable the manufacturer's product to work with newer operating software, etc... Therefore, it is in the company's best interest to insure their product works at optimum efficiency. To me, that means firmware should be the cost of doing business. Add it into the price of their equipment during the original sale. Since Ianizer is giving real world example to back up his opinion, let me give one of mine. Mind you, that firmware upgrades are not required and are by choice.

I drive a 2002 Volvo S60 Turbo. The manufacturer discovered a fault in design of the fuel pump. Located under the back seat on top of the fuel tank (Fault causes tiny amounts of fuel leakage after people owned the car for a while and you could smell gas fumes in the car. By the time I went from the office to home, a distance of 45 miles, I had a headache and the smell of gas in your car is very disconcerting.) Volvo sent out recall letters, requesting the cars be brought to the nearest dealers to have the problem fixed at no charge. Should Volvo have charged me for fixing this? No. It is in their best interest to fix the problem, whether or not it is life threatening, for free.

My opinion on whether manuals should be free:
I believe service manuals should not be in the hands of people who are not technicians. That belief has not changed from the beginning. This post and comments have made me rethink my previous view of whether it should be free to receive manuals. I have worked for independent's before, and it was impossible to purchase a manual for each machine, let alone for each technician.

Result: Technicians wanting to do a good job, beg borrow, or in some cases, even steal manuals from fellow technicians who have them.

Reaction: Manufacturers react to this by raising prices on said manuals, make them more unattainable, or threaten to cancel licences/certifications and etc...

Reaction: Techs get more secretive and imaginative about obtaining them.

In truth, service manuals ARE proprietary and it IS copyright infringement to copy and give them to friends and neighbors. However, I do believe copying portions or paragraphs that cover a particular problem is acceptable as long as the entire manual has not been given. Will I give a manual to someone in the future? I don't know, perhaps not. Additionally, I believe reselling said manuals without permission of the manufacturers is more illegal. Personally, I have been guilty of purchasing said manuals when I could not go any farther with a machine, because I had no other choice. Is there a solution to this problem? I don't know, but I'm not going to judge anyone harshly for doing so.

[michaelc]

Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

also on this note, firmware up grades should be free to anyone who owns the machine. machine owners should not have to pay for OEM mistakes

If they upgraded it themselves, then yes.

[Zackuth]

Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

I agree that firmware updates should be free, but as to machine owners updating firmware--that I'm not so sure about. Lets face it, there are some customers where setting the machine to duplex is a challenge. Updating firmware would be disasterous. I know it would be the customer's fault if anything did go wrong, but I would rather spend half an hour updating firmware myself rather than twenty hours trying to bring back a machine that I know is dead.

[michaelc]

Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

I agree that firmware updates should be free, but as to machine owners updating firmware--that I'm not so sure about. Lets face it, there are some customers where setting the machine to duplex is a challenge. Updating firmware would be disasterous. I know it would be the customer's fault if anything did go wrong, but I would rather spend half an hour updating firmware myself rather than twenty hours trying to bring back a machine that I know is dead.

I agree but if a machine needs a firmware upgrade it will need a trained tech to do it. There is a cost involved, which the company usually picks up with our training, the courses we attend, the painful hours gaining experience. Unfortunately it is all down to money.

[JR2ALTA]

Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

Everybody is agreeing and not even realizing it.

The point is, as BC and other have said, it depends on their contract.

Don't forget the customer is paying you monthly/quarterly/yearly to service the machine. Sometimes the machines go PM to PM without service, but they pay you anyway.

Firmware should always be included.

I will only bill a small company for obvious OE's and new computer connections. Larger corporations that cut checks like butter...well, bill them, more power to ya.

[mojorolla]

Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

We offer an IT service agreement as well as the engine contract. That way, we get paid for all the wonderful changes customers make to their network. If they have no IT contract and they have an issue, we bill them. Although, I always chuckle when they call and say "...we had new computers installed last week and now the machine won't print or scan...", ya don't say...

I think firmware should be free to the public. I look at it as job security. Let them have at it. And when they mess it up, we get to bill them for a repair or attempt to sell them a new box.

[prntrfxr]

Re: Cheapskales & Moochers & Freeloaders, OH MY!

I believe firmware should be free, but for techs. Of course, manufacturers have no way of knowing if it is a tech that is downloading it.

I believe techs should charge for time required to install firmware. The end-user could do it themselves, but if they screw up, they have to pay the consequences.

I believe end-users should be charged for firmware DIMMs and for time to install.

I believe manuals should be available on PDF from manufacturers and be offered for a fee. It should be cheapest for those who are certified, cheaper for those with a tax ID in the business, and more expensive for end-users. It would probably not be as cheap as what is sold by certain companies on the internet, but it should not be $200+ for it either.