This one's for you network guys ...

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  • blackcat4866
    Master Of The Obvious

    Site Contributor
    10,000+ Posts
    • Jul 2007
    • 23008
    #1

    This one's for you network guys ...

    I'm sure you've all had this happen:

    You're on a setup. You plug the customers network cord into the surge suppressor. You connect a 5 footer from the surge suppressor to the MFP. You power up, and wait for DHCP to find the machine and assign an address. And nothing happens. And more nothing happens ...

    ... then you connect the customers cable directly into the MFP. Then DHCP does it's magic. An open address is selected, DNS1 and maybe even a DNS2 are visible. Sometimes even a domain name. You set a static address and this part is done, unless ...

    ... unless the customer is concerned that some of his machines connect through the surge suppressor, and some don't. Why!? I have a couple of theories, and I'd like your opinions:

    1) Perhaps the surge suppressor is actually open across the network connection. Maybe there was some kind of a surge, but I kind of doubt it in the 2 seconds it was connected since I took it out of the box. I suppose it should test through with my cable tester ... any reason it shouldn't? I can also put my laptop on the network side, and the MFP on the other side of the surge suppressor, set up static addresses, and see if it will connect.

    2) Maybe there are more than the allowable 6 meters of cable hub to patch panel, 90 meters from patch to wall plug, and 3 meters from wall plug to MFP. Exactly what happens when the wire is too long? Do the electrons just get tired and lay there in the wire, because they just don't have any more jiggle left? Maybe packets lost? Maybe low signal levels? How can I tell? I've got Wireshark, but when I start the thing running I can't make anything of the gibberish that it pours out. And if I'm not getting a network connection it's not going to do me any good anyhow. Is there a more suitable software/tool?

    3) Maybe I've got a bad router port? Again, how can I tell?

    =^..^=
    If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
    1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
    2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
    3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
    4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
    5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

    blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=
    Tags: bad, laptop, left, lightning, meters, power, protectors, side, silent, static, symptoms, test, wait, work
    • KenB
      Geek Extraordinaire

      2,500+ Posts
      • Dec 2007
      • 3944
      #2
      Re: This one's for you network guys ...

      I think that quite a few power filters attenuate the network signal so much sometimes that it becomes unusable.

      I've seen this a number of times, even with the ones we sell (name brand withheld).

      The problem seems to effect scanning more than printing, for some goofy reason.

      It's gotten to the point where we've stopped using the Ethernet portion of the filter.

      While they may do a good job on the power side of things, the network is another story.

      Sadly, though, we had a customer have a pretty hard lightning strike a few months ago, where the jolt that came through the network cables fried a number of MFP NICs (read "motherboards"), and cost a boatload of cash to get resurrected.

      They purchased the equipment about 5 years ago, back when we didn't sell filters.

      So, name your poison: Use a filter and risk poor performance, or don't use a filter and risk getting zapped.
      “I think you should treat good friends like a fine wine. That’s why I keep mine locked up in the basement.” - Tim Hawkins

        Comment

        • Mr Spock
          Vulcan Inventor of Death

          1,000+ Posts
          • Aug 2006
          • 2064
          #3
          Re: This one's for you network guys ...

          Also if the customer does not use all 4 pairs for setting up the network run this can cause issues. I have an account where we had to put hubs in between the wall and the machine to compensate. They used 2 of the pairs for the phone line jack to save on cabling and for some reason this caused the machine to do crazy things. The hub used all 4 pairs to the machine so it was happy.
          And Star Trek was just a tv show...yeah right!

            Comment

            • blackcat4866
              Master Of The Obvious

              Site Contributor
              10,000+ Posts
              • Jul 2007
              • 23008
              #4
              Re: This one's for you network guys ...

              Originally posted by Mr Spock
              Also if the customer does not use all 4 pairs for setting up the network run this can cause issues. I have an account where we had to put hubs in between the wall and the machine to compensate. They used 2 of the pairs for the phone line jack to save on cabling and for some reason this caused the machine to do crazy things. The hub used all 4 pairs to the machine so it was happy.
              This is something I can check. I cannot imagine this particular customer trying to cheat by running phone lines in the same cable as network, but I can imagine them just being lazy, and not terminating all the leads.

              Yes, since phone circuits are running at 90vac, it most certainly could induce currents in the other pairs within the cable. Thanks. =^..^=
              If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
              1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
              2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
              3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
              4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
              5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

              blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

                Comment

                • MFPTech
                  Trusted Tech

                  250+ Posts
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 486
                  #5
                  Re: This one's for you network guys ...

                  In my opinion the network cables should run only NIC to NIC or NIC to Switch. Anything else might cause problems.

                    Comment

                    • n25an
                      Service Manager

                      Site Contributor
                      1,000+ Posts
                      • Jul 2008
                      • 1030
                      #6
                      Re: This one's for you network guys ...

                      wow...

                      I have never heard of that problem before...

                      thanks for the information
                      Sad To Say I Don't Have a Life
                      I do this stuff on the weekends too

                        Comment

                        • blackcat4866
                          Master Of The Obvious

                          Site Contributor
                          10,000+ Posts
                          • Jul 2007
                          • 23008
                          #7
                          Re: This one's for you network guys ...

                          Not that I fixed anything, but here is what I found:

                          I connected my cable tester across the network portion of the surge protectors. They all read correctly.
                          Then I set up the laptop to the surge to the MFP, with static addresses. Again good connection and quick ping times.
                          Then I set the laptop back to DHCP, and connected it directly to the network cable. This is where it got interesting.

                          At location #1 the network interface at first connected, but would flicker to "No Connection" for less than a second at 20 second intervals. I had arrived on site early. When the clock ticked over 8:00 I lost the connection completely, and could not get it back. No MFP, no surge suppressor, just the laptop and a cable (and I tried three other cables). Somehow, I don't see this as a hardware problem.

                          At location #2 the network interface connected, but similarly dropped off at ~20 second intervals. I had the presence of mind this time to run a continuous ping. You can see (15) or so successful pings at 2ms or less, then (4) Timed Out, then another (15) successful pings, etc. Again, no MFP, no surge suppressor, just a laptop and a cable. How can this be the surge suppressor? I took a screen shot of the ping, and forwarded to the right department. This machine has been dropping off the network randomly for 6 months.

                          I'm just glad to finally document this. There must be some sort of way to measure the signal strength. The cable is purported to be less than 100ft, so length should not be an issue.

                          If it were my responsibility I think I'd perform the same test right at the switch, to narrow down whether the problem was with the cable or the switch. I suspect that since at least two locations in the same building have the same symptoms, and quite possibly several others. That rules out a single bad network cable, unless they're all bundled in the same conduit with a 220VAC power line.

                          I don't know a thing about these big networks. What's the geography? I'm assuming that there's a server preceding the switch somewhere. Anything else? =^..^=
                          If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
                          1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
                          2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
                          3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
                          4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
                          5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

                          blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

                            Comment

                            • Hansoon
                              Field Supervisor

                              Site Contributor
                              2,500+ Posts
                              • Sep 2007
                              • 3385
                              #8
                              Re: This one's for you network guys ...

                              I'm assuming that there's a server preceding the switch somewhere.
                              Would a server in between not be showing with a networkscanner such as Netscan?

                              Hans
                              “Sent from my Intel 80286 using MS-DOS 2.0”

                                Comment

                                • pepper38_cnd
                                  Field Service Manager

                                  Site Contributor
                                  1,000+ Posts
                                  • Aug 2005
                                  • 1075
                                  #9
                                  Re: This one's for you network guys ...

                                  Is it possible that their network is 1 Gig and the surge surpressor is older and only supports 10/100? Or that one of the patch cords you used is not Cat5e or Cat6?
                                  Online Store is closed. Chip resetting is a thing of the past! Thank you to all my past customers.
                                  Now into Ip TV KODI Boxes

                                    Comment

                                    • blackcat4866
                                      Master Of The Obvious

                                      Site Contributor
                                      10,000+ Posts
                                      • Jul 2007
                                      • 23008
                                      #10
                                      Re: This one's for you network guys ...

                                      Firstly, thanks for your responses.

                                      Originally posted by Hansoon
                                      Would a server in between not be showing with a networkscanner such as Netscan?

                                      Hans
                                      I'm sure one of those is the server. The problem is that there were 100+ live addresses picked up. I don't have any clues which would be the server. Typically (but not always) the server is assigned a very low or very high address, but with so many possibilities where to start?

                                      Originally posted by pepper38_cnd
                                      Is it possible that their network is 1 Gig and the surge surpressor is older and only supports 10/100? Or that one of the patch cords you used is not Cat5e or Cat6?
                                      At least in this building, the network was wired from scratch within the last 3 months. So at least the cabling should be Cat5 or Cat6 compatible. The 5 footers came with the surge suppressors, and are ~3 yrs old.

                                      Here's a strange coincidence: Another call with the MFP dropping off the network today. No surge suppressor at all. I put the laptop on the cable with DHCP set, and on continuous ping got (4) Hardware Error, then (4) Timed Out, (4) Hardware Error, (4) Timed Out, etc. This one was a little more obvious. The 20 ft cable had several kinks, and two flat spots where the Venus had been sitting on the cable. The other cable in the room was connected to a dead network connection. New cable fixed this one. Do IT people own laptops? This doesn't seem mystical or genius as a method of diagnosis. Come on guys! You can't always blame the MFP!

                                      =^..^=
                                      If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
                                      1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
                                      2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
                                      3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
                                      4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
                                      5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

                                      blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

                                        Comment

                                        • JR2ALTA
                                          Service Manager

                                          Site Contributor
                                          1,000+ Posts
                                          • Feb 2010
                                          • 2033
                                          #11
                                          Re: This one's for you network guys ...

                                          This happened to me but their IT staff was on top of it and determine their network saw the protector as a "rogue switch" In other words data was cut off assuming a hacker had introduced an unauthorized device.

                                            Comment

                                            • KenB
                                              Geek Extraordinaire

                                              2,500+ Posts
                                              • Dec 2007
                                              • 3944
                                              #12
                                              Re: This one's for you network guys ...

                                              Way back when the Canon iR600 was a novelty (maybe 1998?) I had a "no connection" call.

                                              About one out of every 10 pings was successful - the others timed out.

                                              The IT admin was calling our machine a "very expensive piece of %*#@", and so on.

                                              It took about 3 minutes to find that the machine (quite the heavy beast), had been rolled over the patch cable and severely pinched it. A new cable was all it took.

                                              No "sorry", no "oops", no nuthin'. What a jerk.
                                              “I think you should treat good friends like a fine wine. That’s why I keep mine locked up in the basement.” - Tim Hawkins

                                                Comment

                                                • TennWalker
                                                  Technician

                                                  50+ Posts
                                                  • Apr 2007
                                                  • 72
                                                  #13
                                                  Re: This one's for you network guys ...

                                                  I have had similar problems with various branded Windows Servers. In one location, the server would become disconnected with the filter in place. I tried different patch cables, Cat 5e Cat 6, traded out different non-managed switches, and different branded UPS devices. We used Gigabit switches and Gigabit NIC card in the server. I even moved the server to the part of the building that housed the switches and connected from the switch to the server, the problem remained. I called CDW about this and they could not provide an answer either. I did notice that my laptops and other workstations worked correctly. So, in the end I just installed a new NIC card and decided to abandon the built in Ethernet adapter. I can't explain this other than some internal architecture that does not play well with UPS devices.

                                                  Obviously, we cannot trade out the copier NIC's with different brands and it certainly isn't as cheap. I wish you luck in your quest! Without the filter in place we all cringe a little with each electrical storm!
                                                  I thought I was getting wiser as time went on... I now realize I am just getting older.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • copres
                                                      Technician

                                                      Site Contributor
                                                      • May 2011
                                                      • 41
                                                      #14
                                                      Re: This one's for you network guys ...

                                                      I've been advised not to use the cables that come with new surge protectors - they are of very poor quality and generate a lot of weird service calls. I had one cable that plastic end came off as I was trying to take cable out of bag it came in. Same goes for phone and network cables.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • blackcat4866
                                                          Master Of The Obvious

                                                          Site Contributor
                                                          10,000+ Posts
                                                          • Jul 2007
                                                          • 23008
                                                          #15
                                                          Re: This one's for you network guys ...

                                                          Originally posted by copres
                                                          I've been advised not to use the cables that come with new surge protectors - they are of very poor quality and generate a lot of weird service calls. I had one cable that plastic end came off as I was trying to take cable out of bag it came in. Same goes for phone and network cables.
                                                          This one's new to me. I must have installed 1000's of the standard enclosed cables. =^..^=
                                                          If you'd like a serious answer to your request:
                                                          1) demonstrate that you've read the manual
                                                          2) demonstrate that you made some attempt to fix it.
                                                          3) if you're going to ask about jams include the jam code.
                                                          4) if you're going to ask about an error code include the error code.
                                                          5) You are the person onsite. Only you can make observations.

                                                          blackcat: Master Of The Obvious =^..^=

                                                            Comment

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