C450i Output Tray Stacking issue / annoyance

[AaronM]

We have a new set of Konica Minolta c450i's in our office.

Very happy with the speed of scanning and printing off of these compared to the HP machines they replaced (which despite having the same rated speed for printing tended to sit and think for 60 seconds every few pages... took forever to process prints, and scanned fairly slowly... vs. the c450i that outputs before we can walk to the machine, and hurls scans through the feeder at mildly scary velocities)

However, they are being a pain on the output side, which we've never seen on previous HP, Xerox, or Konica Minolta models we have had over the years.

They have an annoying tendency to 1: curl pages heavily, sometimes causing them to pile up like ribbons and 2: scatter the stacks of pages so they aren't outputting in square and tidy stacks (especially annoying as this makes the offset feature of the output tray completely useless).

(They aren't scattering more than a centimeter or so, but that is enough to make the offset feature we specifically ordered for the output tray not work for separating print jobs)

These both seem to be due to the shape of the Tray 2 (bottom) tray.

1: Paper curl. Technician has turned the temperature of the rollers down as far as it will go to try to alleviate the curling. This doesn't seem to be affecting the fusing quality, but it's not suite enough to stop the paper curling up in a pile sometimes (we are making sure to put the paper the right side up, mostly this avoids the issue). Using Tray 1 instead of 2 avoids the issue but obviously that doesn't help if we need to print a larger document.


2: Scattered pages: Several issues cause this...

• The scalloped gap in the tray (so you can pick up the page) is wide enough, and the angle of attack of the page curling out of the printer is steep enough, that the page dives into the scalloped shape and bounces out, throwing it off from landing flat and square. - Partially alleviated by covering the scallop with some 12x18 sheets, makes pages hard to pick up.
• The pages still scatter, however, as with the curling issue, the pages hit the tray at nearly 90 degrees, causing them to push the pages below out of position as they print.
• When a page doesn't curl as much (heavier paper) the pages still land in a scattered pile because the page dropping out of the printer catches the air and causes a wave to travel through the page as it falls, making it drop in random places rather than straight down.
• We're trying to put a wire or plastic guide on the top to press the pages down, still doesn't stack the page evenly, but it stops the side-to-side at least...

I don't think we can do a lot more for 1.

Anyone have more ideas for 2??? Short of buying a finisher or sending the copiers back just to work around this, I don't know what to do with this and still be able to use the deeper output stacking and the offset feature.

[Bix]

Re: C450i Output Tray Stacking issue / annoyance

Hi, you are trying to fix a non-printer problem. I advise you to avoid changes to the fuser or anything else, it is a waste of time and money in the long run.
Your problem is in the paper. You did not specify the models of the previous printers, maybe they were inkjet or they had another structure. Laser printers have a hot fuser and if the paper is bad, it curls.

[AaronM]

Re: C450i Output Tray Stacking issue / annoyance

Hi, you are trying to fix a non-printer problem. I advise you to avoid changes to the fuser or anything else, it is a waste of time and money in the long run.
Your problem is in the paper. You did not specify the models of the previous printers, maybe they were inkjet or they had another structure. Laser printers have a hot fuser and if the paper is bad, it curls.

Yes, I understand 'how a laser printer works,' lol, I've been working with our printers and the techs servicing them for about a decade in our office, I'm not a trained technician by any stretch but I'm not a complete layman either. Previous MFPs (and our large format printers for the last decade or so) have all been laser printers, most recently HP MFP M880's, I would have to look up what the Xerox model number was.

We can't just throw 24lb stock in the printer for everyday use and call it a day, the printer needs to be able to output 20lb plan paper regularly... Yes, we have changed paper brands and quality to see if it helped, and flipped papers of both types, and the issue still occurs (if anything the cheaper paper flipped the right way up is a bit better because it naturally curls the opposite way to begin with...). As noted, curl is reduced by doing so, but not enough to stop the issue entirely.

It is not just the paper, it's the shape of the output tray and angle of attack to the tray, and I'm wondering what if anything we can do about it short of getting a different printer.

And we're only addressing 1 of the 2 issues I noted above here.

[bsm2]

Re: C450i Output Tray Stacking issue / annoyance

Adjust the Fuser temp for paper is incorrect.
Have they replaced the fuser??
If not have them change it.

The other major cause is the paper
Good brand will have an arrow as to load what side first. If you paper doesn't have a load first it's crap

Buy hammermill or a good brand paper

[AaronM]

Re: C450i Output Tray Stacking issue / annoyance

Adjust the Fuser temp for paper is incorrect.
Have they replaced the fuser??
If not have them change it.

The other major cause is the paper
Good brand will have an arrow as to load what side first. If you paper doesn't have a load first it's crap

Buy hammermill or a good brand paper

I don't really expect the fuser in both 2 week old machines needs to be replaced, or that they would both arrive brand new with the exact same behavior if this were a maintenance issue... though I'm sure we will get to that before sending the printers back regardless.

I understand the technician adjusting the fuser temp isn't ideal, it was an experiment to try to reduce the curl issue, which again, happens with multiple papers.

Our standard paper has a load-first direction, which is being followed, though we also tried not following it to see if it helped by chance. And tried other 20lb paper that did not have direction markings. We will try getting more paper brands to try.

We're not going to start using 24lb paper just to deal with what is as far as I see a design issue of the shape of the output tray we're trying to address (the curl wouldn't be an issue if the printer weren't jamming the page down at such a step angle to the output tray), machine needs to be able to print standard 20lb plain paper for everyday use.

[bsm2]

Re: C450i Output Tray Stacking issue / annoyance

I don't really expect the fuser in both 2 week old machines needs to be replaced, or that they would both arrive brand new with the exact same behavior if this were a maintenance issue... though I'm sure we will get to that before sending the printers back regardless.

I understand the technician adjusting the fuser temp isn't ideal, it was an experiment to try to reduce the curl issue, which again, happens with multiple papers.

Our standard paper has a load-first direction, which is being followed, though we also tried not following it to see if it helped by chance. And tried other 20lb paper that did not have direction markings. We will try getting more paper brands to try.

We're not going to start using 24lb paper just to deal with what is as far as I see a design issue of the shape of the output tray we're trying to address (the curl wouldn't be an issue if the printer weren't jamming the page down at such a step angle to the output tray), machine needs to be able to print standard 20lb plain paper for everyday use.

Can't remember if Konica has build in paper tray heaters or it's an option have the turn them on if it's build in.
Good luck Yes Brand new machine should NOT be jamming
If can change the direction of the paper long edge or short edge and try.
Most likely it is a paper brand issue speaking from 40 years in the business we never like to go there first but on brand new machines nothing should be wrong with any of the parts.
High speed copiers need good paper, slower printers can get away with crappy paper.

[blackcat4866]

Re: C450i Output Tray Stacking issue / annoyance

This is a hygrometer:

hygrometer.jpg

It's not that expensive and will definitively tell you if the environment in your office is affecting the paper. We'd like to see that humidity between 25% and 37%. If you're seeing 50% or more humidity will affect all the paper on ANY laser based printer in this environment.

We've all got horror stories about paper, like the customer that:
-stores their paper in an unheated 10F warehouse, then loads those frozen reams of paper in a 70F machine, then watches it jam for the next two hours.
-stores their paper reams on edge, then complains that the paper curls.
-whole palettes of paper in which the glue used to wrap the ream coats the edge of the ream of paper.
-the elementary school that had 85 colors of paper loose on an elaborate shelving system, open reams that have been sitting there for months or years.
-paper that is strangely heat reactive. Brown rorschach-shaped spots appear only after fusing.

Something as simple as shutting off the heat/AC over the weekend will cause this sort of problem ... mainly on Monday morning, then when the tech arrives in the afternoon the issue is magically cured.

Anyone else want to contribute a paper horror story?

Feel free to blame the machine ... ONLY after loading fresh, room temperature paper to the machine and it still does this.
=^..^=

[BillyCarpenter]

Re: C450i Output Tray Stacking issue / annoyance

This is a hygrometer:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]47109[/ATTACH]

It's not that expensive and will definitively tell you if the environment in your office is affecting the paper. We'd like to see that humidity between 25% and 37%. If you're seeing 50% or more humidity will affect all the paper on ANY laser based printer in this environment.

We've all got horror stories about paper, like the customer that:
-stores their paper in an unheated 10F warehouse, then loads those frozen reams of paper in a 70F machine, then watches it jam for the next two hours.
-stores their paper reams on edge, then complains that the paper curls.
-whole palettes of paper in which the glue used to wrap the ream coats the edge of the ream of paper.
-the elementary school that had 85 colors of paper loose on an elaborate shelving system, open reams that have been sitting there for months or years.
-paper that is strangely heat reactive. Brown rorschach-shaped spots appear only after fusing.

Something as simple as shutting off the heat/AC over the weekend will cause this sort of problem ... mainly on Monday morning, then when the tech arrives in the afternoon the issue is magically cured.

Anyone else want to contribute a paper horror story?

Feel free to blame the machine ... ONLY after loading fresh, room temperature paper to the machine and it still does this.
=^..^=

I live down south. Our office is a few blocks off the gulf to be exact. Customers sometimes leave a ream of open paper out in the open it's a nightmare. I have put paper in the microwave to dry it out. Hey, it worked.

[BillyCarpenter]

Re: C450i Output Tray Stacking issue / annoyance

This is a hygrometer:



Feel free to blame the machine ... ONLY after loading fresh, room temperature paper to the machine and it still does this.
=^..^=

In my opinion, the tech is still at fault. He should have brought a fresh ream of paper and proved it to the customer.

[tsbservice]

Re: C450i Output Tray Stacking issue / annoyance

This is a hygrometer:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]47109[/ATTACH]

=^..^=

Those(and many other) machines have built in humidity sensor.

[Bix]

Re: C450i Output Tray Stacking issue / annoyance

Those(and many other) machines have built in humidity sensor.

That's right, they already have a built-in sensor. I can even consult it from CSRC in Historical - Environment.