KM bizhub C353 - dots/squares on printing/scanning, bad MFP board?

[DaveK]

Attached are PDFs of the printing/scanning result of my KM bizhub C353 (well, it's an NEC IT35C5, but it's re-branded to KM).

Our second round of copier guys (long story, I'll explain it if anyone wants to hear a copier-guy horror story) came out, have taken a week to just tell me it's a "PWB Assembley" or "PW Board" but only yesterday quoted me a price of $1440, but they are researching a repair vs. replace option for the board. He should be back with me today on a price.

I've done a TON of research and found that PWB is a generic term for any of what looks to be 3 or 4 boards in the machine, ranging from $300-$1350. Hytech Repair seems to have a $487/$650/$1354 repair/exchange/replace option for the PWB-MFP board, but I'm not even sure that is the correct board.

Do the attached PDFs seem to represent what would be a bad MFP board? I had a brief stint as a Savin repair tech about 10 years ago, am very technically/mechanically inclined, posses a full set of service manuals for the copier, and am wondering if I'm qualified to replace this board on my own?

Any advice is very much appreciated. To make a very long story short, my company (before I worked here) rolled 5 years of maintenance into a lease and the company that was providing the maintenance has skipped town with the monies from at least 15-20 local businesses. They got their fat checks from the leasing companies and rode off into the sunset. They stiffed their customers, other local copier companies, and even their landlord. When they skipped town I was visited by every copier company within 30 miles trying to get my business. They're well known around here. We're extremely budget conscious when it comes to copier maintenance/repair and I've been tasked with trying to keep our 3 machines running until the lease is up.

[racosta]

I would try reinstalling your driver and checking your cables before replacing any pwb's. Just to be sure that it is not the board.

[DaveK]

Driver on the workstations? The dots take place even when you scan/copy, without a computer even involved.

By checking the cables, just shutdown/unplug copier, get to the board, and unplug/reseat all the cables going to it? Hell, I'm not even sure the copier guys tried that when they came out as I was on vacation when it happened.

I would try reinstalling your driver and checking your cables before replacing any pwb's. Just to be sure that it is not the board.

[racosta]

Well If it's happening when copying also it just might be a bad pwb. But just to be safe I would try to reseat all the connections and maybe even try firmware upgrade.

[Tonerjockey.com]

I haven't seen that exact pattern before but I have seen odd patterns like that appear before. I'm assuming that this is also happening on copies? And if you were to print the counter list? If so, then the MFP-PWB is the likely candidate. We have had a couple of those fail. A loose connector could always be the problem, but I haven't seen it on that particular model.

Also, when you have the service rolled into the lease, the service entity is typically paid as the revenue arrives to the lease company. It could be different with yours, but it seems odd. Plus, you can request from your lease company to change service vendors. It only requires that the service company agree. If they are not providing service and do not agree to release you, then you have grounds for legal action. If the service company no longer exists, then the leasing company is keeping the money that is rightfully yours.

Also when it comes to working on your own machine, I'm sure it could be done, but how much time and expense are you going to spend doing that plus you have even fewer resources at your disposal than the servie company. Also, if the board does not fix it, they are sort of obligated to not charge you for it. Changing your own fusers, rollers, or image units is one thing. I think this is the one time where you probably should have service.

[DaveK]

It does happen on copies in addition to scans and prints, I hadn't tried the printing the counter list, and it does it on that too. I just went and tried it. (It popped in my head why that was a good idea...make it print something without using any of the imaging hardware, nice!) It's the same pattern, but they're vertical instead of horizontal. I've attached it for reference.

Is a firmware update even something to try (besides loose cables) as I can have them try it. I'm going to also make them aware that if the MFP doesn't fix it, I'm not paying them if it comes down to that.

I believe our accounting department contacted the leasing agents regarding the issue, and they had no record of there being maintenance rolled into the lease. Guess they got us good on that one. It's a very expensive, and lengthy lesson. We're only a year and a half into the 5 year lease. Wish I could have been here when this deal went down.

The service entity is listed as the "supplier" on the lease, but I see no information on the lease about maintenance. Having them agree to release us is not an option as they no longer exist. I will look into it further myself as this quickly becoming not only a financial burden to my technology budget, but the bane of my existence.

Thanks to everyone for their help and advice.

I haven't seen that exact pattern before but I have seen odd patterns like that appear before. I'm assuming that this is also happening on copies? And if you were to print the counter list? If so, then the MFP-PWB is the likely candidate. We have had a couple of those fail. A loose connector could always be the problem, but I haven't seen it on that particular model.

Also, when you have the service rolled into the lease, the service entity is typically paid as the revenue arrives to the lease company. It could be different with yours, but it seems odd. Plus, you can request from your lease company to change service vendors. It only requires that the service company agree. If they are not providing service and do not agree to release you, then you have grounds for legal action. If the service company no longer exists, then the leasing company is keeping the money that is rightfully yours.

Also when it comes to working on your own machine, I'm sure it could be done, but how much time and expense are you going to spend doing that plus you have even fewer resources at your disposal than the servie company. Also, if the board does not fix it, they are sort of obligated to not charge you for it. Changing your own fusers, rollers, or image units is one thing. I think this is the one time where you probably should have service.

[mo0651]

Firmware should be free. So its worth a try.

[DaveK]

Firmware should be free. So its worth a try.

Nothing is free with this service vendor. I don't think I've got the ability to update the firmware myself as I am not an "authorized service representative."

In other news, the copier guy that I like stopped by today. He offered to look at it free of charge, I helped him move the machine out and get to the MFP board. He checked all the connections and blew all the dust out of the area with compressed air. He also checked the connections on the PWB-JMP, SODIMMs, and ribbon cables leading to the MFP.

The machine still exhibits the same symptoms, so there is a bad board for sure. He's going to check on a price to have the board repaired/replaced, or try to find a definitive answer if the symptoms lead to the PWB-MFB board, but all signs point to it so far. Not sure if it could be the PWB-MC board since they're connected together. I guess trial & error is the only way to tell. I do have another machine that's the same model number, it just has a different finisher. Not sure if I'm feeling risky enough to swap the boards to see if the symptoms travel with the boards. I also did notice that the firmware in the other copier (the working one) appears to be newer than the one that is faulty.

Now that I've seen it apart, changing the MFP board doesn't seem as daunting as it did before, however...how sure can I be that my symptoms are related to a PWB-MFP board and not another board?

[Mr Spock]

I believe that all the image processing is done on the mfp pwb. The others basically run the motors and switches.

[spock]

Last time I had corruption with dots and other bits on one of these machines it was the ram modules. I've had a couple i think actually. Try the internal memory tests though they don't always fail anyway.

[Stirton.M]

I am with Mr Spock on this one. The MFP is the likely suspect.

And frankly, if the board is not at fault, you should not be held liable for the price tag. They should simply change the board, see if that corrects the problem and if it does, THEN discuss the charge. Of course, the tech may be merely giving you a heads up as to the possible costs if this problem corrects the issue. Which brings me to the next issue.

This company that you are dealing with now, did you sign a service agreement with them? Did you sign one with the previous company? Reason being, it is highly advisable a service agreement be arranged. Preferably with a certified KM dealer or branch. It may cost a bit monthly, but that is nothing compared to the costs of replacing consumables and labour when you need it, and of course, for situations like this one.

Another option is to simply send the MFP out to a repair center and have them look at it and repair the board. It would almost certainly be cheaper through that route, provided that the board is indeed at fault. Send a print sample with it so the repair center will have an idea of what to look for.

[DaveK]

The previous company we had signed a service agreement with. They rolled 5 years of maintenance charges into the lease. They have since disappeared off the face of the planet. The leasing company does NOT have it setup as a maintenance payment to be given to the previous service company as revenue comes in. They have already issued them a check (a year and a half ago) for the FULL amount of the copy machines and the maintenance. This previous service entity WAS an "Authorized NEC Document Solutions Dealer." However, KM seems to be reluctant to assist with anything since it says NEC on the front instead of KM. NEC has been completely useless in the matter. It's almost difficult to find someone there that will even acknowledge that they sell copiers.

I have not yet signed a service agreement with the current company because we cannot afford to right now. I've technically already PAID for 5 years of maintenance, 4 of it I will never receive. They are desperately trying to get my to sign a service agreement, which with our current volume would run around $16k a year. It's $16k a year I don't have. Toner, rollers, IUs, even this silly MFP board problem... probably aren't going to run me $16k a year. The current company also didn't really attempt any diagnostics of the problem, they just Google'd something on one of our worker's computers, and guessed. Seems they guessed right, but had it been a loose connection or something of that nature, I never would have known. I would have just footed the bill for the board.

There is another service entity who has always been straight and fair with me through this ordeal, and he is looking into PWB-MFP pricing and repair options.

Still haven't tried a firmware update, but it seems unlikely at this point that would cause the problem. Thanks for all the responses, I'll keep you posted as to what happens in the end.

I am with Mr Spock on this one. The MFP is the likely suspect.

And frankly, if the board is not at fault, you should not be held liable for the price tag. They should simply change the board, see if that corrects the problem and if it does, THEN discuss the charge. Of course, the tech may be merely giving you a heads up as to the possible costs if this problem corrects the issue. Which brings me to the next issue.

This company that you are dealing with now, did you sign a service agreement with them? Did you sign one with the previous company? Reason being, it is highly advisable a service agreement be arranged. Preferably with a certified KM dealer or branch. It may cost a bit monthly, but that is nothing compared to the costs of replacing consumables and labour when you need it, and of course, for situations like this one.

Another option is to simply send the MFP out to a repair center and have them look at it and repair the board. It would almost certainly be cheaper through that route, provided that the board is indeed at fault. Send a print sample with it so the repair center will have an idea of what to look for.

[Albonline]

mfp or ram. most likley ram. does the pattern ever change? if not most likley ribbon cable.

[DaveK]

The pattern is exactly the same every time, but different depending on the operation.

Not sure if that makes sense, when I copy, the pattern that appears for copying is always the same.
When I scan, the scan pattern is different than the copy pattern, but it's the same every time I scan.
Same goes for printing to it as a network printer.

I've noticed the machine has two SODIMMs installed, is it as simple as trying one chip at a time to see if it changes or goes away?

Attached is a full array of print samples based on operation for review.

mfp or ram. most likley ram. does the pattern ever change? if not most likley ribbon cable.

[spock]

looks like ram to me still, also try going into techrep mode > state confirmation > memory/hdd adj and run through the memory tests. This might not show any issue though as ive had one fail and pass in both cases.

you could try swapping them around i guess and running 1 at a time but i cant remember if the machine can boot with just 1 module installed. I think on the last one i had, the machine stopped booting when you swapped the positions which pointed straight to the ram... Its always a difficult one to pin down.