New Color Machines, TASKalfa 500ci, 400ci, 300ci, 250ci

[bestia0]

Sorry, but you get what you pay for - kyocera colour are cheap for a reason and thats why you see more colour machines going into customers than black and white. If you want more features buy a canon, minolta or ricoh that cost a lot more. You can't have it all at a cheap price!

Well, personally I found Kyocera usually more expensive than other brands because of the low cost of running. Probably, during last period of the time, Kyocera colors are generally priced down, not because they dont have the mentioned features I think, but because of the 3 main reasons:

- a new model is in the stock and they have to sell out an old one asap.
- they need an answer to competitior's model 20 ppm A4/A3+
- so far these devices haven't had a colorful touch panel, an usb host, a good toner, etc.

But the price is a complicated subject which depends on so many things, like an area of your activity, your competitors and customer etc. So I guess, too hard to talk about that.

Anyway, I am sure that the problems I mentioned about with my last post, have nothing to do with a customer paying extra money for that.

It just something which has to be done when we talk about colorful MFP and all my customers from any marketing department, printing shop, publishing house as well as others, think in that way. And they are absolutely right. Thats why I am so disappointed about new Taskalfa.

I just wonder if not having these mentioned 'features' might be caused by 2 things:
1) some technical problems, especially in regards to a grammature of paper and printing without margin (personally I dont think so)
2) someone in Kyocera is very stubborn and dont accept these 'features' as an important benefit in the office environment.

As a result, a new Taskalfa althought will improve the present sale situation of single line dealers, it will not allow them never to get the strong position in the segment of A3 mfp in color.

I hope that someone from Kyocera is reading all of that and finally is going to do something with it. Because its a very serious limitation, which simply stops sale.

[banginbishop]

Well, personally I found Kyocera usually more expensive than other brands because of the low cost of running. Probably, during last period of the time, Kyocera colors are generally priced down, not because they dont have the mentioned features.

Anyway, I am sure that the problems I mentioned about with my last post, have nothing to do with a customer paying extra money for that.

I just wonder if not having these mentioned 'features' might be caused by 2 things:
1) some technical problems, especially in regards to a grammature of paper and printing without margin (personally I dont think so)
2) someone in Kyocera is very stubborn and dont accept these 'features' as an important benefit in the office environment.
.

[vikingmita]

don't want to sound pissy, but it's a mfp in office segment, and it's pretty much on par with it's competitors. it's not ment for professional graphical reproduction, and competitors neither. 220g from bypass is normal (and more important 163 from duplex. weak point from before):, no a3+ is normal, no 1200dpi is normal. several machines offer full bleed and borderless, but as far as ricoh-machines, they get very messy inside after some use. yes, they support it, but they don't like it. i know canon has machines that do the things you're listing, but like i said: they are not in the same segment. (or price). it's like complaining that the fiat 500 doesn't fit 7 people like the volvo xc90.

[bestia0]

So yes you do get what you pay for.

As I said before. The situations you face in your local markets don't show a permanent worldwide situation. In my country Kyocera is priced as high as other competitior's machines (if not ever higher), because of the low cost of running. So it's hard for me and for my customers to look at Kyocera as "a different / cheaper segment". In other words, firstly it basically costs a lot and secondly as much as other brands and it doesn't have mentioned 5 features. That's it.

My goal was ... it is NOT just about a money. It's about creating a product which ANSWER a customer's NEEDS. So it's not about what we think about our products, but about how our customers are using it and what THEY do expect from color printing.

[bestia0]

... but it's a mfp in office segment, ...

Yes, but please don't forget that most of the customers have completly different expectations in regards to color MFP than they did to B&W (ever in the office segment).

I will explain at the end, why these features are so important and why they should be treated as standard in color MFP (eventually available option) .

... and it's pretty much on par with it's competitors. it's not ment for professional graphical reproduction, and competitors neither. 220g from bypass is normal ..., no a3+ is normal, no 1200dpi is normal...

Please, don't take it personally, but people working in Kyocera think in the same way as you do, and that's why TODAY, we do have a very serious international sale PROBLEM with Kyocera color MFP and that's why Minolta dominated this worldwide segment.

Have a look here - Back Issues ... at September 2008. There you go ...

That situation was caused by some weakness points of PREVIOUS color models (which included also mentioned 5 features which unfortunately still left. Why? Did someone forget it ? Or maybe someone still doesn't accept it as important at the office? I don't know). I don't feel like to go now into details, because fortunately we have today a new model TASKalfa, which solves out most of previous problems. TASKalfa is a BIG improvement in compare to the previous model and there is no doubts about that. They really improved a quality of copy thanks to the new toner.

Anyway, as I said before, the 5 mentioned problems still left and they are a source of very serious sale problem.

If someone doesn't see it and doesn't accept these 'features' as an important benefit in the office environment, he is simply WRONG and causes the situation where customers are choosing other brands, unfortunately not a Kyocera one

It means as well that Kyocera will still have their sale problems and Minolta will sell incredible more color products than Kyocera ever did in the office segment. Of course, Taskalfa will change a bit the present situation. But not enough.

Why I have started that discussion? ... I just feel that someone has to finally make a change. I am in love with Kyocera and for many years being their single line dealer. From my experience I know very well that Kyocera means a truth quality and a low cost of running. Trust me, I was a pain in my competitor's a... for many years thanks to Kyocera (before Mita). But today, new Kyocera color need definately a better improvement. It took them so long to launch a new machine, and it is still not completly perfect. Kyocera doesn't follow their competitors and their new MFPs in color do NOT answer all customer's needs, because of not having 5 mentioned features (when some competitor's devices do) and they still do NOT allow Kyocera single line dealers to win. As long as they will not understand how and why these 5 features are so important. That's the way it is.

1) A3+ / SRA3
(A3+ format mainly applies to prinitng shops and publishing houses. They do a "trimming". I guess, I don't have to explain how important feature is that for them. This sale argument may be also easily used in office environment where "independance" in color is a point.

2) the grammature of paper
As above. The same customers: printing shops, publishing houses, also marketing departments, advertising companies and any other customers you may ever imagine in the office segment. People want to have "independance". They want to print brochures, business cards, invitation, leaflets, certificates, covers of catalogues, pictures etc. and trust me, they prefer to do that on 256 - 300 g/m2 than on 220 g/m2

Because, the above needs are not a subject of everyday use, the perfect solution would be if Kyocera will put these features just into a MULTI-PURPOSE TRAY (both, 300 g/m2 and A3+ format are very welcome). That would solve all problems and minimalize a cost of change.

3) physical 1200 dpi
Ricoh already have it. Two other brands also. So, not having that feature, it's a problem of the nearest future.


4) banner printing
yes, it's an important feature, because it allows you to print more advanced brochures and displays (marketing would love it). By saying 'advanced brochures', I mean e.x. the brochure with width of 84 cm, and then simply fold it like a book.


5) full bleed (borderless printing)
yes, it's definately an important feature, because this allows you to print whole page into color, without having white borders, but also to use the picture imaging on your "white" prints which make a visual impression (image that fit exactly right up to one of the edge). All of that without guillotine. Just simple, comfortable and impressive printing in color. Exactly like it should be in color.

let's compare a few models from present portfolios (just in advance, sorry if I am wrong with below details):


bizhup C200 (256 g/m2) | A3+ | 600dpi | - | full bleed
bizhup C203 (271 g/m2) | A3+ | 600dpi | banner | full bleed
bizhup C252 (256 g/m2) | A3+ | 600dpi | - | full bleed
bizhup C253 (271 g/m2) | A3+ | 600dpi | banner | full bleed
bizhup C352 (256 g/m2) | A3+ | 600dpi | - | full bleed
bizhup C353 (271 g/m2) | A3+ | 600dpi | banner | full bleed
bizhup C451 (300 g/m2) | A3+ | 600dpi | (?) | full bleed
bizhup C550 (300 g/m2) | A3+ | 600dpi | (?) | full bleed
Aficio MP C2030 (256 g/m2) | A3 | 600dpi | - | full bleed
Aficio MP C2050 (256 g/m2) | A3 | 1200dpi | - | full bleed
Aficio MP C2530 (256 g/m2 ) | A3 | 600dpi | - | full bleed
Aficio MP C2550 (256 g/m2) | A3 | 1200dpi | - | full bleed
Aficio MP C2800 (256 g/m2) | A3 | 1200dpi | - | full bleed
Aficio MP C3300 (256 g/m2) | A3 | 1200dpi | - | full bleed
Aficio MP C4000 (256 g/m2) | A3 | 1200dpi | - | full bleed
Aficio MP C5000 (256 g/m2) | A3 | 1200dpi | - | full bleed
e-STUDIO 2500c (256 g/m2) | A3+ | 600dpi | - | full bleed
irC4080i (254 g/m2) | A3+ | 600dpi | - | full bleed
irC2380i (220 g/m2) | A3+ | 600dpi | - | full bleed
Kyocera TASKalfa (220 g/m2) | A3 | 600dpi | - | -





SIMPLE CONCLUSION:
The truth is that listed MFP are a part of Kyocera's competitors and belong to the same segment.
The truth is that Kyocera is at the end of the list, because of not having these features.
The truth is, if Kyocera will not change mentioned by me 5 features, Kyocera will never get back the strong positon in the segment of MFP in color.


THE END
Regards, Kyocera single line dealer (still loyal)

[vikingmita]

that was an long answer.

anyway, i understand what you mean, and unfortunatly you're very right in how people working at kyocera think. i have heard, totally unofficially of course, that they are not aiming at being in the leading front on colour machines, their goal is to make long lasting copiers that are cheap to run and who offer decent print quality(and not so stupid choice these days with all fanatic environmentalists running around). they are not interested in what i'd (in lack of a better word) call 'upper league'. this is where i'd put copy centers/print shops/publishing shops who would indeed be asking for 1200dpi, a3+ and bannerprint. kyocera is ment for buisness, and that's it.

here in norway the leading brands are ricoh/nrg and minolta, like the rest of europe. 'my' company sell ricoh/nrg and kyocera, with main focus on ricoh/nrg (because the km-c850, c2630 and c2520-3225-3232-4032 sucked hard on reliability, and they are like in your country priced higher than others. market in norway is pretty much 70-80% colour and increasing. copysenters/printshops etc. is less than 10% of the total sales). we have never lost sales to minolta on specs, just pure money. (i have no idea how minolta can sell their machines for that little).

i don't know if it's because we're picky on quality, or because sending things to offset is relatively cheap, or because we differ stronger on print/copy and offset (or just used to do it), but a3+ is never an argument unless you're talking to some big print shop. (and they usually stick to canon anyway) cutting an a3+ down to a3 or making buisness cards on an mfp just doesn't happen, that's stricktly offset domain. what do happen though is people in the estate-biz wanting to run 200g cover sheet through duplex and 160g duplex and full bleed on remaining set in super-funky-shiny-megaglossy quality up to 20 pages and fold the whole damn thing. when they hear the price of something remotely capable to do such, they run away to the closest offset-shop.

i also had a quick test of the new taskalfa recently, and kyocera is still doing what they've done with their previous colour machines: they're leaping two generations in development each new model. my opinion is that they now are one gen behind the 'others'. display response is great, they fixed the calibration, belt raise for less drum wear on b/w print, scan from and to usb (and print), and the web browser is a fun 'extra'. print quality is very good. if the taskalfas are reliable in terms of stable dev, drum and fuser, and they do run 300.000 prints, my only minuspoints are, like you noted, ability to swallow thick media and 1200 dpi. i'd also like to see a small and cheap 'bolt on/hanging' finisher for the 250/300, or a cheap and fast internal one. best buy should be the 250 and 400. can't see the 500 defend it's price, and the 300 just falls in between.

[LNorris]

we have put over 50k on our 500ci. we have had some minor issues (had fuser codes popup when there is a jam for some reason) and there was a mark (line) off the black drum on thicker paper, but that has gone away now ????

we ran roughly 3k in shop and never had a prob...gave it to our print shop and they cant remove a simple paper misfeed

[euro scott]

I really like the looks of this series and their price is pretty good it seems,I was thinking of offering them to my customers who get sticker shock from the Canon's.. does anyone have the brochures they could email me ? Scott@copiersplusinc.com
Thanks

[texchar555]

hey, whats the deal with registration? Auto registration dose not work with a flip. I had to do a manual color registration. Im a konica Minolta fan not kyocera. From what I ve seen and heard and seen on this site taskalpha are going to be trouble.

[LNorris]

we have over 100k on ours now and no more issues. we have installed 3 others..the only issue since has been a jam occuring on the DF-760 that we cant clear. so we put a new finisher on it and its running smoothly.

most has been user being unfamiliar with color machines.

[10871087]

We have 4-5 out now and they all seem to be running OK, nothing consistant to complain about. A huge improvemnt of the Voyager color machines.

[texchar555]

back to new manchine . I went to a 250ci today and they recieved it yesterday and the thing is not working. You can send but when it comes to recieving forget it. I updated the machine again and installed a fax q system and still did not work. If you recieve anything it just set in the machine and will not print the memory and print light just blinks at ya and will not print. changed paper setting in the tray and the media type nothing works . I called kyo and they dont even know what to do lol lol sounds just like them. these machine are junk.

[euro scott]

not trying to be a smart azz, but maybe your Co. should put you back in the Minolta land, cuz it sure sounds like you have an attitude problem !!

[texchar555]

Scott , I understand where your coming from but when they come over and promise the world to you . You expect something right? I guess what it is Im fully trained on all the bizhub machines b/w and color and I'm trying for all of Kyo and its aggravating that this is going on with the taskalpha machines. Maybe you can lead me on the right path.

[robscopyr]

Sounds like your driver settings are wrong, maybe you are using the wrong emulation for the job you are trying to print? Try printing the same job using alternate emulations, KPDL, PCL XL, PCL5e, and see if you get different results. Also, if you are priting adobe docs make sure that you uncheck ' allow data passthrough' in the advanced settings. I expect atleast 3 driver updates before the driver is no longer the issue ( thanks KMA!)