low humidity ta 5501i

[n25an]

man I keep missing this stuff...
title of thread should be high humidity...

I am trying to wrap my mind around this humidity thing...

tell me if I make any sense...

I arrive at a customer site... I find the paper is curling... on all machines at the location...
I find the humidity in the environment to be about 45% with a digital meter and the same in the machine with the same meter... temp 27 degrees c

paper is curling excessively on this model after 20 pages...

I find that putting new paper into the machine clears up the issue...

I run a service mode test i believe its 137 and find the internal humidity is 23% and external is 44%...

seems ok to me...

I spoke with supervisor and customer and got them to understand that there was high humidity...
honestly I said the words but I just couldn't grasp the concept...

I sat down and thought about it and here is my best understanding let me know if I am off...

if the humidity is high the paper curls...
if it is low the paper thickens and jams...
if paper is stored on floor... it is more likely to draw humidity...

ac removes humidity from the air...
if ac is turned off at nights... humidity builds
if ac is not working properly... humidity builds...
if a cold front comes through... this puts stress on ac... humidity builds...

if possible raise temp of ac to compensate for building humidity...
empty machine of paper at night to compensate for building humidity...
only load paper still sealed when ready to print...
use tray heaters if possible to compensate for building humidity...
add a dehumidifier to the environment...
store paper in an environment that reduces humidity in paper possibly a closet designed for that purpose...

if machine says it has low relative humidity
yet paper is humid and machine does not have tray heater...
this heating could be a passive effect caused by the machine doing its thing...
which would explain why the top of the stack of the paper left in the machine... has no jams... until it gets to print 20 sheets deep... the top layer would have dried out passively... while the rest would still retain the humidity... remember trays aren't sealed and the low humidity is a passive effect... so as the machine naturally dissipates the humidity... it draws more in... and the paper is sucking it up at a rate far higher than the passive dehumidifying effect... its also drying it out from the top of the stack... remember

hot drier air is rising while the cold drier more humid air is moving to take its place...
explaining what happens when you turn off the ac and the copier at nights and it gets humid inside the copier...

if a tray heater was installed it would be drying it out from the bottom... in an active fashion...

now if a copier is in a more humid environment than b copier and both have no tray heater... and copier b uses paper at the same rate as a... and uses the same paper and copier b is much better sealed... and has a much better passive dehumidifying effect... its possible that copier b could have less curl...

thats my thoughts... let me know if any of this makes any sense...

thanks...

[blackcat4866]

Re: low humidity ta 5501i

Accurate on all but one point: To make the AC run more (and get more dehumidification) you'd want to lower the setting on the thermostat (72F lowered to 66F).

This may not be an issue for you, but the temperature differential of the paper can make a huge difference. Let's say that your MFP is in a temperature controlled 70F 20%H room, but the paper is stored at 20F 50%H in an unheated warehouse. For the first two days the paper jams and curls. Toward the end of the second day the paper has acclimated to the point of running properly. Every 5 days (Monday) the enduser brings in, let's say, 50 cases. It jams until Wednesday. Could we bring in the paper on Friday? Noooooo, of course not.
=^..^=

[habik]

Re: low humidity ta 5501i

Are you feeding LEF or SEF? It could be the fibers in paper.

I have noticed that when not good quality paper is used on these machines, the paper is curling a lot on LEF.

Same paper then turned upside down still LEF jams and curls less.

When turned to SEF it stops curling or jamming.

The above was tested countless times with paper without sealed packaging just 2500 sheets of A4 brown box. Cheap paper.

Have you tried playing with loop adjustments?

My closest analogy is, Ribbon curls. How you make ribbon to curl? By pinching part of ribbon with one hand (separation rollers) and pulling the rest of ribbon with other( vertical feed or registration)



A/C is a bastard to work around.

BlackCat has hit the nail on head within the last paragraph.

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[n25an]

Re: low humidity ta 5501i

got you on the ac change...

lef... long edge feeding
sef... short edge feeding...

so try switching paper to short edge feeding this could help reduce curling...
sounds good...

I appreciate the feedback...

[habik]

Re: low humidity ta 5501i

got you on the ac change...

lef... long edge feeding
sef... short edge feeding...

so try switching paper to short edge feeding this could help reduce curling...
sounds good...

I appreciate the feedback...

Yes you got it right. We have customer who changed to cheap paper (recycled) and issues started happening. Changed orientation to SEF and problem gone 95%> Rest usually rollers and clutches. If you have high mileage on the machine above 1mil I can only recommend to replace all clutches and actuators.
Also if you have access to Konica kit, use their feed rollers, last 100-180k instead of Kyocera 40-90k depending on paper used.

Let us know your outcome.

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[mad]

Re: low humidity ta 5501i

Yes you got it right. We have customer who changed to cheap paper (recycled) and issues started happening. Changed orientation to SEF and problem gone 95%> Rest usually rollers and clutches. If you have high mileage on the machine above 1mil I can only recommend to replace all clutches and actuators.
Also if you have access to Konica kit, use their feed rollers, last 100-180k instead of Kyocera 40-90k depending on paper used.

Let us know your outcome.

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i'm interested in the "konica kit".... can you provide the parts numbers? since i'm not familiar with konica but the kyocera feed rollers kind of sucks... Thank You!

[habik]

Re: low humidity ta 5501i

i'm interested in the "konica kit".... can you provide the parts numbers? since i'm not familiar with konica but the kyocera feed rollers kind of sucks... Thank You!

Pick up roller Dark grey rubber ribbed.
A5C1562200

Feed and Sep roller orange translucent neoprene.
A00J563600

You'll love them. The great thing is that if you have the Kyocera modified feed units or at least the copper colour separation spring installed the rollers then last forever.
Wish Konica did the same to get 200k out of them.

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[Practic]

Re: low humidity ta 5501i

yet paper is humid and machine does not have tray heater...

Machine itself in base doesn't have tray heater, but there is an option PF-770 that has heater built in it.
Not sure - if that works for you or not.

[habik]

Re: low humidity ta 5501i

i'm interested in the "konica kit".... can you provide the parts numbers? since i'm not familiar with konica but the kyocera feed rollers kind of sucks... Thank You!

Just thought of you when went to see a machine.
Both trays 2 jams, just marginal difference in Feed count and both SEF due to cheap paper.
Despite the orange separation roller being worn it would go easily another 50k.


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[Kyo fan]

Re: low humidity ta 5501i

Thanks for pictures habik.

I'm also thinking to order few of these for testing. I presume you are removing the rubber roller and inserting Kyocera's shaft into it. How hard it goes?

[habik]

Re: low humidity ta 5501i

Thanks for pictures habik.

I'm also thinking to order few of these for testing. I presume you are removing the rubber roller and inserting Kyocera's shaft into it. How hard it goes?

On 4500i -8000i you should be able to do just whole roller.

On 3501i-8001i you need to sleeve it off.
I put it this way, the Konica are easily taken off.
The Kyocera are a bit tighter! Would love to give credit to a fellow member on CTN just can't remember his name. His suggestion was to slide small screwdriver between the rubber and plastic roller and put few drops of IPA (don't mean Indian pale ale !)
When you press&roll with your fingers spreading IPA around will act as lubricating agent, and it will sleeve off easily.

There has been thread about this and credit goes to them!!

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[blackcat4866]

Re: low humidity ta 5501i

I think this covers it:

Zeus Feed Rollers
=^..^=