Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

[ChrisG]

Machine has been running up until this point at fairly high volume. Recently did a dv unit swap for black and a couple of days later now the unit says black toner empty. It is of course not, tried different cartridges (OEM), the neck of the toner shutter underneath the toner is full and the toner add is working. The DV unit is not getting the toner, and the toner sensor reading reflects that. If you manually add toner to the dv unit to satisfy the sensor, the machine comes back to ready until that toner runs out and then goes back into add toner mode. This would indicate the toner sensor in the dv is also fine.

The toner supply drive pack mounts from the rear of the machine and provides drive to the units. Is there anything in the drive unit itself that would prevent toner from being supplied from the hopper assembly, down to the dv unit or is it purely just drive?
Clutch, solenoid etc etc?

Thoughts or ideas appreciated

Chris
TJL Copy Products

[BillyCarpenter]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

Sounds to me like the toner sensor in the DV is the problem. What is the toner sensor control voltage -U131??

PS - Have you tried putting the old DV unit back in to see if the problem goes away?

Edit: Also, print the Event Log and look for a C7101 error - Toner Sensor K error.

EDIT II: You said you did a "swap" of the K DV unit. New or used?

[tsbservice]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

Machine has been running up until this point at fairly high volume. Recently did a dv unit swap for black and a couple of days later now the unit says black toner empty. It is of course not, tried different cartridges (OEM), the neck of the toner shutter underneath the toner is full and the toner add is working. The DV unit is not getting the toner, and the toner sensor reading reflects that. If you manually add toner to the dv unit to satisfy the sensor, the machine comes back to ready until that toner runs out and then goes back into add toner mode. This would indicate the toner sensor in the dv is also fine.

The toner supply drive pack mounts from the rear of the machine and provides drive to the units. Is there anything in the drive unit itself that would prevent toner from being supplied from the hopper assembly, down to the dv unit or is it purely just drive?
Clutch, solenoid etc etc?

Thoughts or ideas appreciated

Chris
TJL Copy Products

Sounds to me like the toner sensor in the DV is the problem....

I don't think so Billy.
I would consult manual if I had one...which I haven't. Generally speaking if toner is going directly from cartridge into dev unit check for shutter/sealing not opening properly, if there is intermediate section inbetween toner cartridge and dev unit check for binding or some sensor there not properly functioning.

[BillyCarpenter]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

I don't think so Billy.
I would consult manual if I had one...which I haven't. Generally speaking if toner is going directly from cartridge into dev unit check for shutter/sealing not opening properly, if there is intermediate section inbetween toner cartridge and dev unit check for binding or some sensor there not properly functioning.

He says that he can forcibly add toner. That would show that toner path is unobstructed.

[BillyCarpenter]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

I'm looking at the manual for the 356ci. You may try upgrading firmware first. Also, I don't see any simulation to check toner control voltage on this model. Disregard that part of my previous post.

If you are indeed able to forcibly add toner and there's nothing obstructing the toner path, that would indicate one of several possibilities.

1. Bad DV unit
2. DV relay board
3. Wiring problem from the DV relay board to the control board.

If it was me, I'd put another DV in the machine to see if the problem goes away before I did anything.

[tsbservice]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

He says that he can forcibly add toner. That would show that toner path is unobstructed.

Billy I won't to speculate further cuz I really don't know this machine. I read what he said and manually add toner isn't always necessarily means to use add toner menu from service mode, he can simply pour toner into developing unit by hand. Of course if he can be more specific about that and really used machine itself to add toner that would mean toner supply path is OK.

[BillyCarpenter]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

Billy I won't to speculate further cuz I really don't know this machine. I read what he said and manually add toner isn't always necessarily means to use add toner menu from service mode, he can simply pour toner into developing unit by hand. Of course if he can be more specific about that and really used machine itself to add toner that would mean toner supply path is OK.

Yeah, a little more information would be helpful.

-Was it a new or used DV unit that he installed?

- What does the event log say? C7911 is an EPROM error on the DV unit. Not sure if that shows up on the display screen or only on the event log.

[tsbservice]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

Yes I would think that if developer unit isn't new that may be the problem. But again we're in unknown territory until OP clears the speculations.

[BillyCarpenter]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

One more thing I thought of. Even though you can forcibly add toner and the machine comes to a ready state, you could still have a problem with something preventing the toner from getting in the DV unit. When you forcibly add toner, there is no time limit but when the machine is running during normal operation, if enough toner isn't added in a certain amount of time, you're gonna get a toner empty message. Food for thought.

BUT...I still suspect the DV because the problem didn't start until you changed the unit. The old saying comes to mind, if you hear hoofprints...think horses and not zebras.

[blackcat4866]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

I'm having a different read:

1) I suspect that the toner hopper is working properly taking the toner from the bottle.
2) If you can pour some toner in manually and satisfy the toner sensor, I suspect that you have a fully functional developing unit. If you were losing agitation or had a disfunctional toner sensor, the toner add condition would never clear, even momentarily.

Sorry that I can't offer a specific solution (I've not ever seen this model), but I have a suspect. On a Toshiba eS2550C I had a slightly malformed toner waste bottle. On the Toshiba, inserting the waste bottle actuates a spring loaded shutter to open up the port in the top of the developing unit. The malformed bottle was missing the feature that opened the cyan port, so it never got replenished with cyan toner. I could pour in toner to make the cyan developing unit happy, and the toner feed tube (just a vertical tube without any auger) would pack full indicating the hopper was supplying the tube, it just wasn't making it into the top of the developing unit.

Does that sound similar? =^..^=

[BillyCarpenter]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

I'm having a different read:

1) I suspect that the toner hopper is working properly taking the toner from the bottle.
2) If you can pour some toner in manually and satisfy the toner sensor, I suspect that you have a fully functional developing unit. If you were losing agitation or had a disfunctional toner sensor, the toner add condition would never clear, even momentarily.

Sorry that I can't offer a specific solution (I've not ever seen this model), but I have a suspect. On a Toshiba eS2550C I had a slightly malformed toner waste bottle. On the Toshiba, inserting the waste bottle actuates a spring loaded shutter to open up the port in the top of the developing unit. The malformed bottle was missing the feature that opened the cyan port, so it never got replenished with cyan toner. I could pour in toner to make the cyan developing unit happy, and the toner feed tube (just a vertical tube without any auger) would pack full indicating the hopper was supplying the tube, it just wasn't making it into the top of the developing unit.

Does that sound similar? =^..^=

The reason I suspected the DV unit over toner not making it to the DV unit is because he said he could forcibly add toner and it satisficed the toner sensor. I'm assuming he added toner via a simulation. If he poured the toner in by hand, that's a different story.

But still, even adding toner thru a simulation doesn't necessarily rule out a partially blocked toner path. I think.

[BillyCarpenter]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

I'm looking for some feedback on this one if anyone wants to jump in.

A failed (open) toner sensor will never be satisfied no matter how much toner is in the DV unit because it's open. A toner sensor is an inductor and when the DV unit is rotating, a magnetic field is created and the flux lines cut across the inductor creating a small current which is read by the internal circuitry to determine the proper DV to toner ratio.

However, if the toner sensor is merely "weak" and not open, it takes more toner than normal to satisfy the sensor and if that level of toner is not reached in a certain amount of time, the machine will display a toner empty message.

That's what I remember from many years ago. True or false?

[blackcat4866]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

I'm looking for some feedback on this one if anyone wants to jump in.

A failed (open) toner sensor will never be satisficed no matter how much toner is in the DV unit because it's open. A toner sensor an inductor and when the DV unit is rotating, a magnetic field is created and the flux lines cut across the inductor creating a small current which is read by the internal circuitry to determine the proper DV to toner ratio.

However, if the toner sensor is merely "weak" and not open, it takes more toner than normal to satisfy the sensor and if that level of toner is not reached in a certain amount of time, the machine will display a toner empty message.

That's what I remember from many years go. True or false?

True. There is a little more to it though.

If the rubber wiper comes off or is damaged it leaves a layer of unagitated developer setting right on top of the sensor, giving a falsely low reading. Also you can get a hardened layer of toner on the toner sensor surface, keeping the agitated developer away from the sensor, also giving a falsely low reading. On certain models of Toshibas and Mitas it's routine to use a knife blade to scrape away any toner buildup from the toner sensor surface at the developer change. On these machines, if you don't scrape the toner sensor at the developer change there's a high likelihood that the developer stir will fail "low density". That also accounts for the gradual increase in toner density. =^..^=

[BillyCarpenter]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

True. There is a little more to it though.

If the rubber wiper comes off or is damaged it leaves a layer of unagitated developer setting right on top of the sensor, giving a falsely low reading. Also you can get a hardened layer of toner on the toner sensor surface, keeping the agitated developer away from the sensor, also giving a falsely low reading. On certain models of Toshibas and Mitas it's routine to use a knife blade to scrape away any toner buildup from the toner sensor surface at the developer change. On these machines, if you don't scrape the toner sensor at the developer change there's a high likelihood that the developer stir will fail "low density". That also accounts for the gradual increase in toner density. =^..^=

Agreed. All of those things that you mentioned will give a false reading. Good explanation.

[ChrisG]

Re: Taskalpha 356ci- Black toner empty

Billy,
On the first return trip to the site, the tech and service manager put the old dv unit in and the machine did come back to ready. But, the old DV unit was still also filled with toner so that's not necessarily a true statement. The toner sensor appears to be working on the new dv unit as when it's "empty" the sensor reads 250 or above and declares toner empty. If you manually add toner to the new dv unit, the reading drops to 220-230 depending on the amount added and then rises back to the 250 threshold as sky shots are made.

Sounds to me like the toner sensor in the DV is the problem. What is the toner sensor control voltage -U131??

PS - Have you tried putting the old DV unit back in to see if the problem goes away?

Edit: Also, print the Event Log and look for a C7101 error - Toner Sensor K error.

EDIT II: You said you did a "swap" of the K DV unit. New or used?