The lifetime of a copier

[pjdbm]

ultimately the Technician will determine the life of the machine.

[Stirton.M]

an older Konica Minolta machine like the C350, typical life is about 1 million. Many of our current machines, those of the Tuxedo line and newer are now rated to live as long as 5 million.

That is the typical measure of longevity on any given machine from my point of view. The span of time is subjective to how the machine is used.

Whenever asked this question, like most other analogies related to these machines, I ask the customer to compare the machine to their car. It will last forever if hardly used, but the more you use it, the more worn out it will get over time. Parts availability is irrelevant when it comes to the point that the machine is being serviced for something every other week or so and that service is not related to consumables. Most people will not keep a car for longer than 5-6 years, or 200K...at least, not in Calgary. I know I will not. The cost of maintaining that car is just too much. Granted, unlike the car, if a customer has a service agreement, the costs to maintain the machine pass to the service company. But I put it in perspective that if continual down time for repairs is what they want, the machine will last forever. But if productivity is the ultimate desire, then it should be periodically upgraded...I recommend when the lease agreement is set to expire...every 5 years or thereabout.

And of course, whenever you want to take advantage of new features and capabilities.

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

The manufacturer itself determines the lifespan of a copier during the manufacture. A RELIABILITY & PERFORMANCE SPECIFICATIONS is prepared which establishes the TARGET VALUE for the machines. This is used as a guide in the production process. once machine is installed,other factors e.g working enviroment, care in operation, customer's maintenance policy & technicians competence also affects its working life.SINCE Most manufacturers stock parts for 5-7yrs,after product launch. we may reasonably predict this as the copier's lifespan.

[Lotec]

Well.. still makes me wonder how they perform their tests.

I see a copier with for example a very good paper feed mechanism. When it is time to upgrade the machine, they abandon the paper feed design that is well proven in real life - and come up with another design that is a failure... it may be cheaper.. but is suck ass.

Another variation is the paper feed mechanism on many smaller copiers (I'm not talking about the smallest desktop models for home use).When they have a bigger model with a good paper feed, they just HAVE to make a cheaper design for the small one. It can not cost that much more. A clutch, a solenoid and 3 rollers..
They could basically have the same paper feed mechanism in all models. High volume production = lower price..

Why do they keep the charge roller system if it fails that often. Why not use a charge corona wire? It is not color production machines anyway. It is an office copier. I'm sure a corona wire with 300K lifetime would be preferabel. Insted of changing PCUs every 3-60K.
Yeah.. it will generate some ozone due to the high voltage. And ozone is not good for the customer, the tech or the plants in the room. When inhaled, ozone even reacts with compounds lining the lungs to form specific, cholesterol-derived metabolites that are thought to facilitate the build-up and pathogenesis of atherosclerotic plaques - a form of heart disease. (Atherosclerosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).
We have a few customers that focus a lot on ozone becauser it is bad for the skin, hair, and health in general. But 99.5% don't know anything about it.
But if they use a charge corona - they can just add a filter with every toner. Make it easy to change and the job will be done by the customer every time they change toner. New ozone filters are very good too - if they have the right size. See:

Ozone filter graph.jpgImproved paper feed solution from the paper trays. A feed belt insted of the pick up roller. OK.. fair enough.. but I am happy with the way it worked in the first place. I've noticed that the sep roller is worn down much quicker than the rest of the rollers though. I've read about techs that change only the sep roller every interval, and the rest every second. Is that common?

Improved fuser. Can handle thicker paper stock and should reduce the curling of paper in the fuser. We have no customers that run thicker paper then 160 g/m2 so that does not matter for us. But the curl prevention is something we've been waiting for. We see the MPC4000 have about twice as many jams around the fuser as the MPC2500.

Improved speed is always good for sales.. as long as the machines does not replace more high volume machines. But I've almost never experienced this here. It is quite the opposite. They have a MPC2800 and would have managed with a 200 dollar inkjet printer. Or at least a small gel jet.

Increased security features.. we have no customers that care.. at the moment.

Less energy consumption... we have no customers that care..

Envelope feeder. We'll probably sell some of those.

Single pass duplex doc feeder. That will be good (as long as it works good).

Color Weakness Management Mode. This has potential. I've never heard of any competitors that have this.

Improved drum. YES! Just hope it works as planned. Too bad the charge roller can not be a spare part - that we can use on the rest of the MPCs. I would have saved a lot of time, and the machines would run cheaper = more profit.
Can we not use black drum for color any longer..? That will be a real bummer.

Longer interval between maintnance. I will believe it when I see it. But I hope it's true.
AND I would have loved if they hired the designers/engineers from Dyson to see if they can make some sexy technical improvements.

[Stirton.M]

Technology can change over time due to staff turnover at any given firm. Any number of improvements by one generation of designers may be considered by the next generation as inferior and the cycle will be reversed come the next generation.

There are some improvements that work, while others simply do not work. Feed mechanisms vary, though most are the same. Some have active separation, while others have friction separation, while some rely on airfeed.

I cannot comment on your hardware, but I can on Konica Minolta...and frankly, when it comes to maintenance, general maintenance I mean, most items have a long life and each new generation, the service intervals are much longer on the current lot of hardware, relative to the last generation of machines, and significantly higher than the intervals of the machines I first worked on some 14 years ago. Life span estimates are significantly higher as well. Many machines I worked on, their lives were measured at about a couple hundred thousand...now, they are in the several million range.

Same thing for EM clutches, feed tires and sep tires, torrington clutches.

On one series machine, the C452-C652, the black dev unit is rated for 1.1 Million before it needs to be replaced, the machine's life rated at roughly 6 million, a stark contrast to a C450, the image unit rated at 1 tenth of that, the entire machine itself has a life of 1 million. Feed and separation rollers on the C452 (300K) roughly 10 times the life of rollers found on the C450, which is about 30K. Where the C450 has several clutches, the C452 only has a couple, everything else driven directly by precision motors, which are pretty reliable over long periods of time.

On our production line machines, most clutches on the C6500 are 2 million or more.

Drums rated at 100K on these, the Press C8000 I am currently learning about this week is rated at 300K service intervals.

There are significant differences in KM hardware, relative to what was seen years ago when we first merged. We are even adopting air fed paper trays for the high production machines, seen in the 1200, and the Press C6000, C7000 and C8000 series machines. Though not new in the industry, it is new to the KM hardware lines, and I am told by a couple peers who service the 1200 machines, far superior to the friction fed schemes of previous generations.

The simple matter however, is that all of this is subject to the paper quality too. Shitty paper stock will chew up the rollers much sooner than that of high quality paper. Not always practical to see that high quality paper is used, though more often than not, the customer will use this in colour machines if they want good quality prints...assuming that is their desire. Not all really care about perfect quality, so long as the image looks normal.

In the end, it is subjective to the needs of the end user. Some will abuse the machine while others will take good care of it. Technician service care is pretty important too. Attention to detail when servicing the machine will ensure it will last to the rated life, and sometimes beyond.

[tcypy1961]

until I can't fix it. used copiers are my bread and butter. I started in the Bus. in 1984 and still work on some copiers that were around before then.

[kingpd@businessprints.net]

Is the konica minolta 1200 KM's own design? It looks like it. I thought at one point KM was rebranding Oce but maybe it's the other way around. I see though that KM has the Kodak digimaster series on it's site. How is that situation set up? Heidelberg and Canon (IR110,125,150, etc) were actually rebranded as their own but it appears that KM is keeping the Kodak name on them?

[Stirton.M]

Is the konica minolta 1200 KM's own design? It looks like it. I thought at one point KM was rebranding Oce but maybe it's the other way around. I see though that KM has the Kodak digimaster series on it's site. How is that situation set up? Heidelberg and Canon (IR110,125,150, etc) were actually rebranded as their own but it appears that KM is keeping the Kodak name on them?

There was a little talk about this while I was on course today...OCE most certainly has been an ongoing influence for many of the current model lines. In Canada, Heidelberg and Kodak are not a part of our structure, though I understand they have influence in the US. How and to what extent, I cannot say. One of the other guys may know details. Canon to my knowledge, is still Canon...

Much of the 1200 I am told has OCE design concepts, and one of the guys on my course has admitted there are many OCE influences found on the Press C8000.

However, that said, office machines will be supplied to OCE from KM, while production machines like the 1200 and Press C8000, KM designed, will be shared with OCE and vice versa. As I stated, minor things are of influence to the hardware design from OCE...feed, fusing, to name a few....I am unaware of any OCE hardware beyond the small things. I cannot say for sure.

Océ and Konica Minolta reviewed their strategic alliance

That gives a little detail....mentions Canon, but not if they are combined with us....

More detail here...

Océ details information regarding strategic alliance with Konica Minolta

and of course, more can be found through google.

[KEITH.MAX]

Eight years from the start of production.

[Lotec]

I think it has to do a lot with the customer and the environment it is in.
If they know how to handle the machine, how to store paper and choose an OK paper type there is a good chance of a long lifetime.
If the model is good it will last even longer. With good I mean a machine that works well technically - and that we and the customer can have a reasonable profit from.

We still have 10 year old machines out, and the customer is really happy with them. We're happy since we're there only to perform PMs, and we can make a profit from the machine.


If you have a machine that is in an environment it is not made for, with a lot of unskilled users that treat the machine poorly - the machine will just make it through 3 years. Max.

We've had a few machines where we've told the customer we can no longer service the machine because of the environment and how it's been used. If we have to service the machine once a week .. every week for a year we loose money big time.

We had a machine placed in a dusty mill, and a machine next to a large welding station. We told them it WILL not work but they didn't care.

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

The life span of a copier

The Life span of a copier

it is i.e. what is its actual RELIABILITY. Reliability Engineering is a discipline in itself we can not exhaust all on this forum. But it is concerned with PROBABILITY of satisfactory operation without failure for a definite period of time. It is a PREDICTION of likely success of operation. Electronic equipment are made up of several components and it is by measuring small samples of the various items, that the manufacturer gain information on the FAILURE RATES and then use these figures to predict the overall reliability/lifespan of the machine.

For example the reliability of a machine may be quoted as 93% for a 10,000hr (5 years) operation under a well defined operating conditions e.g temperature and humidity.This means that the probability of satisfactory operation without failure is 93% during 10,000hr operation. For it is impossible to state that the machine was certain to operate correctly for that period of time.
The various stages in the life cycle of a copier can be separated into four parts.

1. Design and development:

• Choice of components.
• Stress and failure analysis.
• Mechanical layout.
• Prototype testing

The purchasing department must ensure that the required components are ordered from a reputable source,the goods thoroughly inspected and properly stored.

1. Manufacture/production:

• Skill and involvement of work force as well as training schemes.
• Tools and equipment and the working environment.
• Inspection and test methods used will also affect the life span of the final equipment.Usually automatic test equipment not subjected to human error are used to check precision parts like printed circuit boards(PCB s).A soak test when the complete equipment is operated for a specified period at elevated temperature / temperature cycling will show up components that are weak.

1. Packing, storage and transport:

• Corrosion, storage, temperature, humidity levels, mechanical shocks and vibration all affect the reliability of the equipment.

1. Working life

• Operating environment.
• Care in operation.
• Maintenance policy.
• Skills, level of training and competence of the maintenance technicians all play a part in the life span of a machine.

NOTE: The importance of the FEEDBACK LOOP in the chain between production and design department and the working life of the equipment and design department in the factory.The latter is provided through technical reports compiled and sent back to the factory by technicians like you and me who are in direct contact with the performance of the copier every day in the field.Our data is used by the design engineers to perfect design.
Thank you.

[Lotec]

Whow!
I'll give that A+
That just have to be the end of this thread. All factors included.
.. and somehow that answer just made me happy.
I'll keep that answer in case a customer asks about the lifetime and reliability.

[kingpd@businessprints.net]

I think it has to do a lot with the customer and the environment it is in.
If they know how to handle the machine, how to store paper and choose an OK paper type there is a good chance of a long lifetime.
If the model is good it will last even longer. With good I mean a machine that works well technically - and that we and the customer can have a reasonable profit from.

We still have 10 year old machines out, and the customer is really happy with them. We're happy since we're there only to perform PMs, and we can make a profit from the machine.


If you have a machine that is in an environment it is not made for, with a lot of unskilled users that treat the machine poorly - the machine will just make it through 3 years. Max.

We've had a few machines where we've told the customer we can no longer service the machine because of the environment and how it's been used. If we have to service the machine once a week .. every week for a year we loose money big time.

We had a machine placed in a dusty mill, and a machine next to a large welding station. We told them it WILL not work but they didn't care.

Good points. Schools and government offices are some of the worst. Or any place with dozen of users. Most don't go to the training and most could care less about the machine and treating it decently.

I'm telling you, we need to have abuse, and "idiot" clauses in the contracts. Some of the travesties I've seen...horrible.

There should be a copier abuse hotline.

[Stirton.M]

I think it has to do a lot with the customer and the environment it is in.
If they know how to handle the machine, how to store paper and choose an OK paper type there is a good chance of a long lifetime.
If the model is good it will last even longer. With good I mean a machine that works well technically - and that we and the customer can have a reasonable profit from.

We still have 10 year old machines out, and the customer is really happy with them. We're happy since we're there only to perform PMs, and we can make a profit from the machine.


If you have a machine that is in an environment it is not made for, with a lot of unskilled users that treat the machine poorly - the machine will just make it through 3 years. Max.

We've had a few machines where we've told the customer we can no longer service the machine because of the environment and how it's been used. If we have to service the machine once a week .. every week for a year we loose money big time.

We had a machine placed in a dusty mill, and a machine next to a large welding station. We told them it WILL not work but they didn't care.

Most of the KM hardware I work with is built to last.

We have found that the factors that lead to a machine being abused by an end user is if maintenance on it is not kept up, it increases the frustration factor regarding jamming, quality issues, failures....this can be exacerbated if the machine looks dirty.

To wit, I have machines out there that are older than 10 years because we have an active policy to clean the machine and maintain its components. Any and all worn parts are replaced in a timely manner, jam and service code counters are reviewed during the visit, along with a conversation with any users as to any problems and concerns. The attitude is impressed on all of us at my shop, they pay our paycheck, so it is in our best interest to keep them happy. The rest of the customer satisfaction is on the machine itself, and how well the customer knows its features, and lastly, the quality of the machine to begin with. With the exception of the C350, ALL the machines I service from that generation to current, some 10+ years and some, are still viable machines. Even the C450s are pushing 2 million in a few cases and still running reliably, a testament to our maintenance regime.

The only reason, in my opinion, to retire a machine is if it no longer meets the needs of the customer. That can be something as simple as volume (PPM and/or monthly cycle), or going from monochrome to colour to technology changes such as new features and abilities or to match their computer upgrade path. No drivers available for current Mac or Windows or even Linux on a particular model.

If the machine is not service maintained, it will end a miserable short life. This is true of anything. Cars are an excellent example of this. I owned a 92 Olds Cutlass right from new to just over a year ago. I kept it clean and well maintained. It received regular service and I took care of it. Original engine and transmission. I went through 3 batteries, two sets of CV joints and 3 brake rebuilds and 1 exhaust system, over and above the other common things like brake pads and shoes, spark plugs, oil changes, coolant changes, wipers, windshield, lights, tires and so on, the car had half a million on it when I retired it. Even the body was in imaculate condition. Only a couple rust spots, but even those were minor...a couple inches at most on the bottom rear panels behind the rear wheels, metal still intact. Some pitting from road dirt on the hood and front grill. It was in such good shape, the dealer I traded it in for gave me $1000 for it...I was originally going to give it over to the kidney foundation, the dealer sold it to someone else for $2000.

Bottom line is to take care of the product, it will last a long time, and reliably.

[kingpd@businessprints.net]

Really good post. They should quit caring about how cool their plastic pieces of crap look and bring back some of the tanks that ran and ran and just improve upon them.