The lifetime of a copier

[b003ace]

Originally Posted by Lotec
I think it has to do a lot with the customer and the environment it is in.
If they know how to handle the machine, how to store paper and choose an OK paper type there is a good chance of a long lifetime.
If the model is good it will last even longer. With good I mean a machine that works well technically - and that we and the customer can have a reasonable profit from.

We still have 10 year old machines out, and the customer is really happy with them. We're happy since we're there only to perform PMs, and we can make a profit from the machine.


If you have a machine that is in an environment it is not made for, with a lot of unskilled users that treat the machine poorly - the machine will just make it through 3 years. Max.

We've had a few machines where we've told the customer we can no longer service the machine because of the environment and how it's been used. If we have to service the machine once a week .. every week for a year we loose money big time.

We had a machine placed in a dusty mill, and a machine next to a large welding station. We told them it WILL not work but they didn't care.



Good points. Schools and government offices are some of the worst. Or any place with dozen of users. Most don't go to the training and most could care less about the machine and treating it decently.

I'm telling you, we need to have abuse, and "idiot" clauses in the contracts. Some of the travesties I've seen...horrible.

There should be a copier abuse hotline.

Don't count on those "idiot" clauses. We had abuse and neglect exemptions in our contracts, but management NEVER enforced them. In fact, management would make us technicians look like fools. We would be required to warn the customer after the first repair for negligence or abuse, that the next time would be chargeable. We would go out again for the same problem, and management would say "Warn them that it won't be covered". I had one customer broke the rear fences in the paper trays FIFTEEN TIMES. I finally stopped "warning" them, because management would never charge them for it. Yet that same management would charge other customers full retail for a first time scratched drum. I got so that on a first time scratch, I would report it as a cleaning scratch and let the customer know that it wouldn't be covered if it happened again. At least they never made me the fool on drums that way.

[b003ace]

Most of the KM hardware I work with is built to last.

We have found that the factors that lead to a machine being abused by an end user is if maintenance on it is not kept up, it increases the frustration factor regarding jamming, quality issues, failures....this can be exacerbated if the machine looks dirty.

To wit, I have machines out there that are older than 10 years because we have an active policy to clean the machine and maintain its components. Any and all worn parts are replaced in a timely manner, jam and service code counters are reviewed during the visit, along with a conversation with any users as to any problems and concerns. The attitude is impressed on all of us at my shop, they pay our paycheck, so it is in our best interest to keep them happy. The rest of the customer satisfaction is on the machine itself, and how well the customer knows its features, and lastly, the quality of the machine to begin with. With the exception of the C350, ALL the machines I service from that generation to current, some 10+ years and some, are still viable machines. Even the C450s are pushing 2 million in a few cases and still running reliably, a testament to our maintenance regime.

The only reason, in my opinion, to retire a machine is if it no longer meets the needs of the customer. That can be something as simple as volume (PPM and/or monthly cycle), or going from monochrome to colour to technology changes such as new features and abilities or to match their computer upgrade path. No drivers available for current Mac or Windows or even Linux on a particular model.

If the machine is not service maintained, it will end a miserable short life. This is true of anything. Cars are an excellent example of this. I owned a 92 Olds Cutlass right from new to just over a year ago. I kept it clean and well maintained. It received regular service and I took care of it. Original engine and transmission. I went through 3 batteries, two sets of CV joints and 3 brake rebuilds and 1 exhaust system, over and above the other common things like brake pads and shoes, spark plugs, oil changes, coolant changes, wipers, windshield, lights, tires and so on, the car had half a million on it when I retired it. Even the body was in imaculate condition. Only a couple rust spots, but even those were minor...a couple inches at most on the bottom rear panels behind the rear wheels, metal still intact. Some pitting from road dirt on the hood and front grill. It was in such good shape, the dealer I traded it in for gave me $1000 for it...I was originally going to give it over to the kidney foundation, the dealer sold it to someone else for $2000.

Bottom line is to take care of the product, it will last a long time, and reliably.

I couldn't agree with this more. The only thing I would add to this is that it certainly seems the older machines are better built and last longer. Much like many of the older cars. Sure, the new ones call for less maintenance, and many of the "wear" items have been vastly improved, but it seems like every new model introduces all sorts of new problems without fixing the problems from the previous generation.

For mepersonally, the lifetime of any product, is how long can I maintain and repair it for less annually than its annualized replacement cost. If a new machine will cost me $10,000 over three years, and the one I have will only cost me $5000 with the same performance, I'm going to keep the old one. The other test I use is if a single repair will come to more than half the LKQ replacement cost.

For some though, this does not factor in at all. I had one client with a bunch of A4 desktop multifunction machines. They would routinely spend more than replacement cost on repairs, because "corporate" had budgeted X dollars for "repairs and maintenance" of the "physical plant", but NOTHING for "purchasing" new.

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

Dear b003ace, your management can NEVER ever enforce that "abuse and neglect clause" in the service agreement for purely the simple reason that they look at the customers from a completely different and opposite view from yours. they(customers) are the very reasons you people are in business, hence the "go-slow" attitude by your employer. In fact don't expect them to do anything about it.
This is an ADDENDUM to earlier articles i posted on this thread. The one thing customer require from any equipment or system is "maximum up" time. A system may posses excellent RELIABILITY,i.e. have a low chance of failure during operation, but if and when a failure occur, the repair time (or "down time") must be short. No customer wishes to wait for weeks for the repair to be carried out and in some cases even a few hours can be costly.The availability of the machine is a function of the mean time taken to repair any fault and includes the time taken to diagnose, locate and then repair the fault.

[Hemlock]

Is the konica minolta 1200 KM's own design? It looks like it. I thought at one point KM was rebranding Oce but maybe it's the other way around. I see though that KM has the Kodak digimaster series on it's site. How is that situation set up? Heidelberg and Canon (IR110,125,150, etc) were actually rebranded as their own but it appears that KM is keeping the Kodak name on them?

The 1200 is pure Konica, the inside of the process unit hearkens back to one of its earlier 70 cpm machines from the turn of the century (millenium?). The KM BizHub Pro 2500C was the Oce' 6250, rebadged. As Oce' couldn't get Venlo to produce a color box, they rebranded KM's BizHub C-6501 with the meatball and called it a CS-650.

Of course, this all ended this time last year thanks to the Canon buyout.

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

The mean time taken to repair ( MTTR) must be as short as possible in order to keep AVAILABILITY high. Given that the necessary test gears and spares are available, much depends upon the skill of the service engineer in effecting a rapid return to operation. This is why training in fault diagnosis is very important. As I stated in earlier articles, the LIFESPAN of the machine (copier) is determined ,among other things by ,the manufacturer. QUALITY is another term used by the manufacturer, and can be defined as " The ability of an item/system to meet its specification. No statement of time included here. So RELIABILITY is really an extension of QUALITY in TIME.
PERFORMANCE SPECIFICATIONS ( a well defined product with clear parameters), TEST SPECIFICATIONS-a document used within manufacturing plant details tests, with limits of measured values, that must be made on all production models. LIMITS & STANDARD SPECIFICATIONS issued by various bodies, national or international, all are used to GUIDE manufacturers and users of the equipment & processes. THANKS.

[Hemlock]

"abuse and neglect clause"

Y'know how when you drive into a tree you have to pay the first couple hundred of the repair? And when you go to the Dr., you pay for part of that visit too?

I firmly believe that copiers should work the same way. Lower monthly premiums but then they pay a bit for each call. It'd help keep b.s. calls to a minimum and give the customer incentive to take care of their stuff.

(not gonna happen, but I can dream!)

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

You are quite right my brother, unfortunately your employers are businessmen and you are a technician - a big difference. You'll have to bear the situation for sometime. Did you try to discuss the situation with your employer?

[RMB]

then a very fine subject tell who ask tech rudi here are several old Gestetner machine in 2254 ... .. canon np6220 by cons ... it had a little new when it changes according to each business situation

[Stirton.M]

Dear b003ace, your management can NEVER ever enforce that "abuse and neglect clause" in the service agreement for purely the simple reason that they look at the customers from a completely different and opposite view from yours. they(customers) are the very reasons you people are in business, hence the "go-slow" attitude by your employer. In fact don't expect them to do anything about it.
This is an ADDENDUM to earlier articles i posted on this thread. The one thing customer require from any equipment or system is "maximum up" time. A system may posses excellent RELIABILITY,i.e. have a low chance of failure during operation, but if and when a failure occur, the repair time (or "down time") must be short. No customer wishes to wait for weeks for the repair to be carried out and in some cases even a few hours can be costly.The availability of the machine is a function of the mean time taken to repair any fault and includes the time taken to diagnose, locate and then repair the fault.

I can guarantee that such a policy is enforced in my office. There is a given for some wear and tear, but if the same damage occurs more than once, the customer will get a bill. Case in point, we tell customers not to use labels in the machines for more than one run through, because the fuser dries out the glue and the paper and there is a high likelihood the label will peel off inside the machine if it is run through a 2nd or third time. Examples are those mail label sheets. I usually give the customer fair warning, I do not speak to the receptionist, I speak to the office manager. I recommend to all my customers to use one of those Dymo Label printers, much more economical and practical.

All customers get one freebie. The next event, they get the bill for our time. Most have never repeated a third time. There is a fine line to this to be sure, but the end users need to know not to abuse the machine. I pay a lot for my car, and I take care of it. I do not want to have to bring it in for a blown engine because I neglected to put oil or whatever else into it as needed. I would fully expect Chrysler to charge me for the repair if it was due to neglect on my part. I can assure you, that will never happen. These MFPs are expensive machines, and they should be treated well, and the technician should not have to repair willful damage to those machines without consequence.

[Lotec]

Don't count on those "idiot" clauses. We had abuse and neglect exemptions in our contracts, but management NEVER enforced them. In fact, management would make us technicians look like fools. We would be required to warn the customer after the first repair for negligence or abuse, that the next time would be chargeable. We would go out again for the same problem, and management would say "Warn them that it won't be covered". I had one customer broke the rear fences in the paper trays FIFTEEN TIMES. I finally stopped "warning" them, because management would never charge them for it. Yet that same management would charge other customers full retail for a first time scratched drum. I got so that on a first time scratch, I would report it as a cleaning scratch and let the customer know that it wouldn't be covered if it happened again. At least they never made me the fool on drums that way.

We almost always send a bill to the customer. All out techs handle all the billing. So if I feel a customer have done something wrong (idiotic mistake or damaged the machine because of rough handling) I make a bill, and charge them for the time, travel, tools, parts and so on.
The more bills I make, the happier the boss gets (because the bill is much (2-4 times) higher than our actual expences) We also get some kind of bonus of the amount we charge. Not in money directly, but in fringe benefits of some kind.

[kingpd@businessprints.net]

Sounds like a good idea. Have a customer deductible on certain things. I still say the manufacturer should be liable for their machines for longer. At a minimum I see no reason why they shouldn't have to warranty most of the parts for three years or three years worth of recommended usage, whichever comes first; exempting certain things like supplies, feed tires, etc.

Y'know how when you drive into a tree you have to pay the first couple hundred of the repair? And when you go to the Dr., you pay for part of that visit too?

I firmly believe that copiers should work the same way. Lower monthly premiums but then they pay a bit for each call. It'd help keep b.s. calls to a minimum and give the customer incentive to take care of their stuff.

(not gonna happen, but I can dream!)

[DAG COPIERS & COMPUTERS]

All very very good ideas and solutions. I hope b003ace is taking note, and may be have to impress it on his emlpoyer to rethink his position on the issue. I do strongly agree with STIRTON'S approach though , that these customers NEED to be EDUCATED about proper use and care of these machines, by non other than we the techs, you can do this everytime you make a visit. it is through this way that they can "show the machine some respect", and even LEARN a bit of "Responsibility".

[Lotec]

If they pay enough for damages they may feel required to learn how to use the machine properly. I send out bills for customer errors for 30-40 000 us dollars a year, at least...
My boss likes that as well. And the customers learn quickly that if they treat the machine bad, they have to hand over some money for repair.
We have much fewer servicecalls now, because of customer errors then before.