TOOLS TO TEST A FAX LINE

[n25an]

Ok... I had an issue today with faxing...
I installed a fax card in a km 4035... I tried sending 1 page fax... It worked... I tried recieving a 1 page fax it worked... I then tried sending a longer fax... It died...

So i switched out the fax card... I went through the whole routine from before and everything worked... I then send a 76 page fax and it worked... Customer send a 40 page fax and it worked...

The next day customer was unable to send faxes...
If two fax cards give same error then its not fax card...
Eventually after multiple tests i was able to get the fax to send a fax but it was interupted with an error code... I asked kyocera about the error code... And they told me it was a bad line...

I did not believe this was the case because the customer has point of sale equipment connected on the line and this equipment worked perfectly... Processing visa and master cards...

I checked it with a phone line... But no static... It was clear... No static...

I know it is a phone line issue...

I am wondering if there is a tool that i can purchase or recommend to my employer that can detect phone line faults as they relate to fax machines...

Any help would be appreciated...

[n25an]

Re: TOOLS TO TEST A FAX LINE

Would a tool like elanko telephone analyzer kit work for this situation... or is there something better for this kind of situation...???

[hekotez]

Re: TOOLS TO TEST A FAX LINE

Hold on... is the POS in the same telephone line as the fax?
Does the client have/had any other fax machine on that line along with the POS?

[blackcat4866]

Re: TOOLS TO TEST A FAX LINE

Hold on... is the POS in the same telephone line as the fax?
Does the client have/had any other fax machine on that line along with the POS?

Like hekotez is inferring, POS equipment and facsimile have two things in common.
1) Possibly the same phone line.
2) They are stupid machines. They do not check to see if the line is available. Like the obnoxious friend at a party, he just blurts out whatever he wants to say, whenever he wants, right over anybody else that happens to be talking at the time.

In that case when the line is in use and a second device tries to send, both transactions fail. The only solution is to have each device on its own dedicated line. =^..^=

[hekotez]

Re: TOOLS TO TEST A FAX LINE

Couldnt put it any better blackcat ^^

If your in a pinch about it, i can only suggest a "compromise" (well... does that fax card got a pass over connection for a phone?)
If it does... phone line comes out the wall to the fax (and nowhere else) a line comes out the phone jack of the fax... and goes to the pos.
Whenever the fax is working... the pos will not have phone line... when the pos is working and midway you try to fax... machine will detect a busy line and wait.
Only either one works... tho never both at same time...
It is not and ideal solution i know... but you have no other way really.

[n25an]

Re: TOOLS TO TEST A FAX LINE

ok... first off... here is the setup... phone line to copier... then another line from copier to pos...
copier does not work when pos works and pos does not work when copier works... neither conflicts with each other...

the issue I am having is just straight poor line quality for fax... but great line quality for pos...

possible reason... pos... only active for 15 to 20 seconds tops... while the copier is faxing an 85 to 105 page document for 5 to 10 minutes...

my logic... the phone line quality just overwhelms any extensive traffic...

the reason for this thought is that a short fax of 3 to 4 pages works fine...

[n25an]

Re: TOOLS TO TEST A FAX LINE

and just to reiterate... nobody is trying to use the pos when the fax is working... and no one is trying to use the fax when the pos is working... the client is that intelligent... I have met some doozies... but this client is not one of them...

[KenB]

Re: TOOLS TO TEST A FAX LINE

Are you sure that this is a "normal" POTS line, and not possibly an analog card in an otherwise digital switch?

I just had this happen a few weeks ago with a Ricoh MFP; it could send all day long (normally less than 5 pages), but couldn't even receive a single page.

I spend a total of about two hours on the phone with tech support, running various tests and changing a number of settings. I even had my lead tech change out the fax board with a brand new one - no banana.

Turned out that the customer had a card in their switch (brand name available upon request) that, even according to the supplier, was downright terrible to send an receive faxes with. This card was there to sidestep the cost of a normal phone line for the fax.

The customer has since added a normal POTS line, and joy has returned to Mudville.

[n25an]

Re: TOOLS TO TEST A FAX LINE

I found some tools online that can turn the internal modem on my laptop into a phone line tester... I am checking it out now.... As soon as i run some test... I will post

[n25an]

Re: TOOLS TO TEST A FAX LINE

found a free modem test tool by passmark
not sure how much benefit that will be...
found a modem noise killer
not sure if this will be of any use on todays systems
found some info on line noise
really not sure if its useful...

after doing some thinking about the matter...
I decided maybe the best way is the simple way...

Testing by elimination... Not by data...

if I cannot test the phone line... then test the fax...
so I made sure the fax in my laptop works... and I will use that as my standard...

If met again with a wierd fax situation... I know my laptop fax works...
so if I can send a long fax or receive a long fax on my laptop fax... then the problem is the fax that I am investigating...

laptop fax is good... line is good... fax to investigate bad

if I reproduce the same issue with my laptop fax that is ocurring on the offending machine... then the issue is the line...

laptop fax is good... fax to investigate good... line is bad...

[blackcat4866]

Re: TOOLS TO TEST A FAX LINE

Make a Tester

Build yourself a simple phone line tester. ~ Total Cost $35.00
Attach a D'Arsonval movement VOM to the back of a fax handset. wire the input=female RJ11 red & green wires to a DPDT switch (to reverse the polarity), then to the VOM/handset. This is not terribly high tech, but you can identify a really bad, out of specs phone line.

Plug the phone cord into your new tester. Check these voltages:

On Hook: -48 VDC (-42.5 to -56.5 VDC), 90 VAC
Off Hook: -10 VDC (-8 to -12 VDC), 8 VAC
Ringing: peak 125 VAC (110 to 137 VAC)

The polarity only matters so that your meter will deflect the correct direction. All modern faxes correct their own polarity.

If the line is out of specs, check the same voltages at the demarc (where the phone line comes into the building). If voltages are still out of specs, its the local telephone provider. If its OK at the demarc, you can be sure its the PBx.

It sounds complicated, but with the tester and a little practice you'll be out of there in 10 minutes with proof it's not your machine. That can be hard to come by.

You'll spend $200 or more for a commercial tester with these same features.

Phone Line Tester.JPG

[n25an]

Re: TOOLS TO TEST A FAX LINE

thanks... I will build that this weekend...

[ExXeroid]

Re: TOOLS TO TEST A FAX LINE

Ok... I had an issue today with faxing...
I installed a fax card in a km 4035... I tried sending 1 page fax... It worked... I tried recieving a 1 page fax it worked... I then tried sending a longer fax... It died...

So i switched out the fax card... I went through the whole routine from before and everything worked... I then send a 76 page fax and it worked... Customer send a 40 page fax and it worked...

The next day customer was unable to send faxes...
If two fax cards give same error then its not fax card...
Eventually after multiple tests i was able to get the fax to send a fax but it was interupted with an error code... I asked kyocera about the error code... And they told me it was a bad line...

I did not believe this was the case because the customer has point of sale equipment connected on the line and this equipment worked perfectly... Processing visa and master cards...

I checked it with a phone line... But no static... It was clear... No static...

I know it is a phone line issue...

I am wondering if there is a tool that i can purchase or recommend to my employer that can detect phone line faults as they relate to fax machines...

Any help would be appreciated...

I have been working with faxes for years, unless your fax board dies (which should be obvious) 99% of the time your problem is the phone lines or the customer/user.

You said it yourself two fax boards exhibiting the same failure mode points to another problem.

Turn off ECM and drop the baud rate setting down to about 9600 see if you have success.
Tell the customer they need a dedicated POTS line if the problems continue.

[hekotez]

Re: TOOLS TO TEST A FAX LINE

Blackcat has it right on the nail, doubt anything you could buy would be more efective and faster to use.

One other thing i tought i might add... i know its not a tech all that used/spreaded in the US... but anyways... xDSL internet connections.
Here we have cable... tho dsl is widely used too, wich is nothing more than a high speed digital connection over a POTS line.
dsl works on a much higher frequency than the regular analog fax/phone, but to make things more secure they usually install a T filter with 2 "exits" on the phone line, 1 goes to the modem, other goes to the phone, fax, whatever... I've had many cases where it was simply the filter that went bad and was causing interferences, both on the internet and fax.
The first question i always ask is, do you have any other equipment using this phone line? and what internet do you use?

This more than likely doesnt apply to your case, but just tought i'd put it as it may someday apply to someone else.

[frogzop]

Re: TOOLS TO TEST A FAX LINE

in case both transactions fail. The only solution is to have each device on its own dedicated line