Electrical Experts Unite

[rthonpm]

I've got a customer with an AF1035 that they are finally looking to get rid of. The only problem is their building's electrical system: the ground in their outlets is pretty much non-existent. You touch just about anything and you get a static shock. This has led their 1035 to need developer changes almost every 25-30,000 pages, if that. Drum has not lasted the PM cycle either.
The whole 35/40 family is so dependent on proper grounding internally and externally I've told sales to not even consider a 4000/5000: with their pro-con errors and issues even in a god environment I doubt one would be a good fit. Is there anything in the Ricoh line that might work better with a wonky electrical system? I was hoping/thinking a 2550 or 3350 would work, as they seem to hold their own much better in terms of copy quality and also use a much simpler transfer and drum system.
Has anyone else had a similar type of account and found a good placement other than a call to a good electrician? Apparently the building is in a historical district and any kind of work like what they would need still falls in under a lot of paperwork and hearings...

[cobiray]

If they can't/won't get the necessary upgrades to the electrical system, don't bother upgrading the on equipment. They will have spent money on something that will only give you both headaches, especially if the current machine is such a poor performer. And if you decide to put a 4000/5000 out in those conditions, don't expect them to get any more equipment from you. If the electrical system is that old (are we talking cloth covered wires?), then not only is it inconvenient, it is probably also unsafe. I would recommend they update the electrical outlets (or at least the one for the copier) before you even discuss new equipment. But that's just one man's opinion.

[nmfaxman]

Power and grounding requirements in the OP manual are just that, requirements.
I have adapted a 20 amp machine to work on a 15 amp breaker, but grounding was a have to have.
Sell them a new machine, but no warranty or contract.
Any manufacturer tech rep would throw up his hands and say not my problem.

[10871087]

Power and grounding requirements in the OP manual are just that, requirements.

and

Municipal building codes are also pretty unforgiving, electrical without proper grounding in any sort of occupied structure seems pretty unheard of to me, especially in a commercial setting. If they won't fix the poor power situation then let someone else sell them a copier that won't ever perform well.

[cherokee]

I've ran into this before and the ground has to be there. You may want to tell the customer that any equipment he has is in peril. My customer told me they had surge protectors so he was safe. A surge protector deverts the power to ground so if it is not there it don't work.

[blackcat4866]

Roll $300.00 into your sale to cover the electrical work. You can call attention to if if you think it is advantageous.

Personally, I would say that we always cover the cost of necessary electrical upgrades/dedicated line.

It's the best of both worlds: you get the sale and the electrical work done.

As you probably already know, most copiers are ground switching devices. That is, to enable say the registration clutch (or anything else) the 24vdc is always there, and the ground is connected or disconnected as needed. If you don't have a reliable ground you don't have a copier, just an expensive doorstop. =^..^=

[Shadow1]

Any manufacturer tech rep would throw up his hands and say not my problem.

I am a Ricoh-USA (formerly Lanier Direct) Tech Rep, and I'll go one further - There are some accounts that are not worth having:

They cost more to maintain than you can possibly recover.
They drive you NUTS in the process.
They are never happy.
No matter how well you document the pre-existing deficiencies they are your fault, and these customers will want to take it out of your hide.
They hurt your reputation.

The way it works with us is much better for your blood pressure:
If a tech suspects a power problem we leave a PowerTronics PQR-52 power monitor there for a week or 2 to document the problem. We take the information to the customer and give them the opportunity to fix it. Depending on the problem we offer to sell them surge suppressors or line stabilizers, etc (not applicable with an open ground - that requires an electrician, which we will also offer to subcontract) If the problem is not fixed we notify them their maintenance agreement does not cover damage caused or influenced by the power problem. We bill the customer for any further related problems and expect them to pay. We usually go back on the next service call and see evidence of a recent visit from an electrician. We are very up-front and as friendly as possible with the customer. We try to make it as easy as "sign here" to get it fixed, but quite frankly this is not our problem and we can't waste resources on it.

[10871087]

There are some accounts that are not worth having:

They cost more to maintain than you can possibly recover.
They drive you NUTS in the process.
They are never happy.
No matter how well you document the pre-existing deficiencies they are your fault, and these customers will want to take it out of your hide.
They hurt your reputation.

I have been using this theory for years. If you can't make money or at least add trouble free revenue to your business then why bother. We all have shitty accounts that we don't want, if you have a good excuse to dump one then do it. It's called addition by subtraction.

[Ollie1981]

They cost more to maintain than you can possibly recover.
They drive you NUTS in the process.
They are never happy.
No matter how well you document the pre-existing deficiencies they are your fault, and these customers will want to take it out of your hide.
They hurt your reputation.

Amen to that.

Most large supermarket "pay-per-copy" accounts we have tick every one of those fricken boxes.

I have chargeable forms ready filled out for most of the ones I go to on a regular basis because every single call pretty much is for something they (or their customer) has broken.

They are very inventive in how they break the machine, I carry a stock of commonly used parts on the car that does nicely for 90% of calls, they manage to break stuff that not even the second worse customers for hamfistedness (builders, warehouses etc) manage to break.

One of my colleagues has to order a truckload of parts for a machine that has been deluged in about three gallons of coca cola from a broken pallet. Where else would you get that??

I don't know what building regulations state in the U.S. But electrical regulations over here are very strict, particularly on commercial premises. Most places I go to the machines are regularly PAT tested and even the crappiest old buildings have to have wiring that's compliant with current standards. Private properties are different, but the utility company that supplies your power reserves the right to inspect your wiring, and if they aren't happy, they can refuse to supply you.

As has been said, copiers are very dependent on proper grounding. Especially when the whole copy process essentially works on controlling static electricity it's a wonder the thing works at all.

[Shadow1]

Electrical codes in the U.S. vary by state, and sometimes by municipality, but are typically good - Federal code is the minimum, but can be tightened by the state, then tightened again by the city. Usually a customer cannot be forced to update their electrical unless it poses a major safety hazard, or they are updating something else - then everything they touch has to meet current code.
That doesn't mean that we have to repair damage to our machine caused by their cloth covered wires, and sometimes the best incentives for a customer to fix a problem is because they can't get service on a product, or in in the bigger picture, liability insurance on their building.