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reckless
09-29-2021, 01:19 PM
I am a book publisher who prints 3M impressions a year. I want to do 10M+. My books are 6x9" text duplex and generally distributed freely. Which is the cheapest and most reliable monochrome production printer? Speed is not an issue as long as printer doesn't need attention. Want something without maintenance contract. Prefer something that will never die, smaller footprint would be nice. Don't need any finishing as I manually perfect bind.

PrintWhisperer
09-29-2021, 05:47 PM
I am a book publisher who prints 3M impressions a year. I want to do 10M+. My books are 6x9" text duplex and generally distributed freely. Which is the cheapest and most reliable monochrome production printer? Speed is not an issue as long as printer doesn't need attention. Want something without maintenance contract. Prefer something that will never die, smaller footprint would be nice. Don't need any finishing as I manually perfect bind.

Given what you have laid out I am not sure a production machine would fit your parameters of 'easy to maintain' and 'small footprint'. Especially if you are considering a used production machine.

You will still need to hook-up with a dealer to buy your maintenance parts and consumables, plus for those things you cannot do like firmware updates and such you will be on a chargeable status. For Kyocera there is a 3 year 'bumper-to-bumper' warranty, but it is only available to authorized dealers. unauthorized parties get a 90-day warranty.

It might be better to purchase 2 hi-volume units in the 80-90ppm range, which is quite common. (1 would suit current volume)

I'll float the Kyocera product because the 9003i has a 600k PM cycle and a monthly duty cycle of 450k. PM parts and toner will be your biggest cost at your expected volumes.
PM kit~.002 cents/page Toner~.002 cents/page (rounded up)

Good Luck!

PrintWhisperer
09-29-2021, 08:01 PM
I felt obliged to add that the 9003i warranty does end at 3 years OR 4.8 million, whichever comes first. This applies to the series which include 7003i/8003i.

Also, once the warranty has passed you no longer have to obey the PM cycle.

If you shop used, this model is the same frame as 2 prior series, the 7001i/8001i or 7002i/8002i/9002i however they do have some issues like transfer belt drift and fuser exit sensor flag wear which should be checked.

BillyCarpenter
09-29-2021, 08:30 PM
Given what you have laid out I am not sure a production machine would fit your parameters of 'easy to maintain' and 'small footprint'. Especially if you are considering a used production machine.

You will still need to hook-up with a dealer to buy your maintenance parts and consumables, plus for those things you cannot do like firmware updates and such you will be on a chargeable status. For Kyocera there is a 3 year 'bumper-to-bumper' warranty, but it is only available to authorized dealers. unauthorized parties get a 90-day warranty.

It might be better to purchase 2 hi-volume units in the 80-90ppm range, which is quite common. (1 would suit current volume)

I'll float the Kyocera product because the 9003i has a 600k PM cycle and a monthly duty cycle of 450k. PM parts and toner will be your biggest cost at your expected volumes.
PM kit~.002 cents/page Toner~.002 cents/page (rounded up)

Good Luck!


Great post. I'll just add that I think it's a bad idea to not have a service agreement. I also think the parameters that the OP laid out will be damn near impossible to meet.

allan
09-29-2021, 09:15 PM
Konica Minolta Pro1100. 40 mil life cycle at 110ppm. 1 mil plus a month. Take the maintenance agreement.

reckless
09-29-2021, 09:59 PM
I was thinking about finding an older piece of equipment that just never dies or goes down. Something built to last forever. Since I am printing text, even 300 dpi will suffice but 600 dpi is better. I looked at digital duplicators but I don't want to collate. I had heard of KM 1251's lasting really long but would prefer a smaller setup if available (Kyoceras do look nice). Also with newer vacuum feed paper systems there should be no jams on input and if I just want to output to a tray/stacker it should be a simple paper path. It would be nice if someone invented a printer than can print on both sides at once to avoid jams.

Somehow paying $0.008/click adds up to 6 figures. I feel like I am buying a new printer every year just on maintenance agreement.

Woxner
09-29-2021, 10:18 PM
What you are asking for does not exist. 10m a year and you will have calls. One or two a month. No machine lasts forever. If it didnt break we would all be out of a job. Even if a machine has a 20m or 40 m life it will take a lot of calls to get there.

reckless
09-29-2021, 10:27 PM
At 2 phone calls per month, 24/year paying $80-$100,000 seems too much to me. Maybe I am a big cheapskate. Maybe I should look at different technology like digital duplicators with collator function? They might be less maintenance?

SalesServiceGuy
09-29-2021, 10:53 PM
To use a car analogy, you are seeking to acquire a used Dodge RAM 350 or the like. You want to pull a heavy load and you do not want any breakdowns.

Like any used vehicle, you could be buying somebody else's problems.

Like the used vehicle market, COVID has caused both a great scarcity of quality used production copier inventory and a big run up in prices.

If you do not have at least $20k in your budget, you will probably have a hard time finding a used solution.

The solution definitely includes finding a quality local service provider with local parts and supplies. If you want to opt for a "Time & Materials" service contract that is do-able but it will cost you more.

You will be hard pressed to find a service provider who is willing to put a used copier making 83k prints per month under service contract.

Such a service provider would likely first insist on doing a full Preventative Maintenance kit rebuild on the copier at your significant cost.

"Used", "No breakdowns" and "10M prints per year" are rarely compatible statements.

I recommend be happy, buy new and lease a Toshiba eStudio 1058 at 105 cpm at around $40k or approx $700.00 month x66 plus cpc charges (toner, labour and parts inc.)

reckless
09-29-2021, 11:35 PM
I hear you, $20,000 is in my budget. Not in the mood to spend $100,000.

Regarding car analogies: I used to have many V12 cars as backups and got tired of the maintenance and sold all of them for an older 2009 Toyota Land Cruiser with 100k miles. I beat the hell out of it everyday and it has almost 300k miles, still drives like new and never has let me down or needed any real maintenance (just oil changes and brakes). I would love the copier version of a Toyota Land Cruiser but maybe such a thing doesn't exist.

I feel like the whole point in spending $20-50k on a printer is not to be married to a dealer. I don't like someone's hand in my pocket. Same reason I got rid of the Mercedes and BMWs. I used to buy production printers from Minolta for $8-12k but they wanted their hands in my pocket. Most of my older problems were to do with finishers or paper tray feeders. If I take those out of the equation I feel like its a matter of fusers/rollers.

SalesServiceGuy
09-30-2021, 01:03 AM
I hear you, $20,000 is in my budget. Not in the mood to spend $100,000.

Regarding car analogies: I used to have many V12 cars as backups and got tired of the maintenance and sold all of them for an older 2009 Toyota Land Cruiser with 100k miles. I beat the hell out of it everyday and it has almost 300k miles, still drives like new and never has let me down or needed any real maintenance (just oil changes and brakes). I would love the copier version of a Toyota Land Cruiser but maybe such a thing doesn't exist.

I feel like the whole point in spending $20-50k on a printer is not to be married to a dealer. I don't like someone's hand in my pocket. Same reason I got rid of the Mercedes and BMWs. I used to buy production printers from Minolta for $8-12k but they wanted their hands in my pocket. Most of my older problems were to do with finishers or paper tray feeders. If I take those out of the equation I feel like its a matter of fusers/rollers.

At 83,000 prints per month even your ideal copier still has to deal with paper trays. Your ideal copier still has to output paper onto a Finisher.

Unless you are good at fixing copiers yourself and have access to all of the parts, know how and consumables, you need a 3rd party service provider.

Your Land Cruiser still needed gas in the tank. CPC charges are like gas in the tank. Oil, brake and tire changes are like a copier service contract.

Unless you get really lucky, I do not think you will find what you are looking for at the price you are willing to pay.

livancicm
09-30-2021, 06:48 AM
At 83,000 prints per month even your ideal copier still has to deal with paper trays. Your ideal copier still has to output paper onto a Finisher.

Unless you are good at fixing copiers yourself and have access to all of the parts, know how and consumables, you need a 3rd party service provider.

Your Land Cruiser still needed gas in the tank. CPC charges are like gas in the tank. Oil, brake and tire changes are like a copier service contract.

Unless you get really lucky, I do not think you will find what you are looking for at the price you are willing to pay.


At 830,000 prints per month

SalesServiceGuy
09-30-2021, 02:39 PM
At 830,000 prints per month

OMG! You are right! At this volume, you probably need two new copiers working in tandem. Used copiers are out of the question unless you want to live a life of misery.

Gift
09-30-2021, 04:09 PM
OMG! You are right! At this volume, you probably need two new copiers working in tandem. Used copiers are out of the question unless you want to live a life of misery.

Even splitting this volume with two production units is probably not a long term solution and comes with a some workload of maintanance and repair needs.

BillyCarpenter
09-30-2021, 04:14 PM
There's no reason that he can't purchase a low meter used machine. But I do agree that he'd be better off buying 2 machines. There's a couple of advantages to this.

1.) Splits the workload.

and

2.) If one machine goes down, you're still able to print.

Just make sure they're the same model.

D_L_P
09-30-2021, 04:39 PM
I am a book publisher who prints 3M impressions a year. I want to do 10M+. My books are 6x9" text duplex and generally distributed freely. Which is the cheapest and most reliable monochrome production printer? Speed is not an issue as long as printer doesn't need attention. Want something without maintenance contract. Prefer something that will never die, smaller footprint would be nice. Don't need any finishing as I manually perfect bind.

If you want something without a maintenance contract I'd check out some HP workgroup printers. An account I worked didn't want one production printer and instead had six HP 9050's with LCT options. They ran non stop all day. Each lasted several million prints. Those things were tanks.

They only needed PM kits at regular intervals. After a few million prints something like a reg assembly or feed unit may need replaced.

Everything was chargeable and IIRC the most expensive call was $800. Most service calls were $200-300.

They don't make the 9050's anymore but the HP LaserJet Enterprise 700 M712n should be an equivalent replacement.

SalesServiceGuy
09-30-2021, 04:54 PM
If you want something without a maintenance contract I'd check out some HP workgroup printers. An account I worked didn't want one production printer and instead had six HP 9050's with LCT options. They ran non stop all day. Each lasted several million prints. Those things were tanks.

They only needed PM kits at regular intervals. After a few million prints something like a reg assembly or feed unit may need replaced.

Everything was chargeable and IIRC the most expensive call was $800. Most service calls were $200-300.

They don't make the 9050's anymore but the HP LaserJet Enterprise 700 M712n should be an equivalent replacement.

... and how much did those HP original toners cost? Well, well above the all inclusive cpc rate of a production copier. I do not think this solution is even close to the lowest TCO which is what is what seems to be this customer's ultimate goal.

Were the toners ever out of stock? With HP in 2021 like many print vendors, likely!

... still an alternate solution.

The chances of finding two used production copiers in the same configuration, delivered, installed, PM'ed for $20k are too small to consider.

reckless
09-30-2021, 05:46 PM
If you want something without a maintenance contract I'd check out some HP workgroup printers. An account I worked didn't want one production printer and instead had six HP 9050's with LCT options. They ran non stop all day. Each lasted several million prints. Those things were tanks.

They only needed PM kits at regular intervals. After a few million prints something like a reg assembly or feed unit may need replaced.

Everything was chargeable and IIRC the most expensive call was $800. Most service calls were $200-300.

They don't make the 9050's anymore but the HP LaserJet Enterprise 700 M712n should be an equivalent replacement.


I have 2 HP 9050 from years ago without LCT. This post was half inspired by that experience as they never died or went down. They were a bit slow but I can leave things running overnight. They are tanks and were a bit loud and noisy, doesn't bother me. Do you know if they were using aftermarket toner? I had good luck with $20 toners. I never used it for super big jobs as I didn't buy the LCT. I saw some for sale $100/ea some years ago. I still use one for printing on label stock.


Originally I wanted a more production style machine but starting to contemplate this route. I bought a brand new HP Laserjet enterprise 725F at auction for $100 for my dads bedroom as his KM C353 kept going down that he never used. Not sure if its anything comparable. I think biggest problem will be paper output tray not able to stack so much paper.

https://static.bhphoto.com/images/images500x500/hp_cf067a_bgj_laserjet_enterprise_multi_function_1 493054467_1331603.jpg

SalesServiceGuy
09-30-2021, 06:11 PM
I have 2 HP 9050 from years ago without LCT. This post was half inspired by that experience as they never died or went down. They were a bit slow but I can leave things running overnight. They are tanks and were a bit loud and noisy, doesn't bother me. Do you know if they were using aftermarket toner? I had good luck with $20 toners. I never used it for super big jobs as I didn't buy the LCT. I saw some for sale $100/ea some years ago. I still use one for printing on label stock.


Originally I wanted a more production style machine but starting to contemplate this route. I bought a brand new HP Laserjet enterprise 725F at auction for $100 for my dads bedroom as his KM C353 kept going down that he never used. Not sure if its anything comparable. I think biggest problem will be paper output tray not able to stack so much paper.

https://static.bhphoto.com/images/images500x500/hp_cf067a_bgj_laserjet_enterprise_multi_function_1 493054467_1331603.jpg


... you will certainly get exactly what you pay for.... you just might not realize it for awhile. Good luck!


Loading paper all of the time into small paper trays has a labor cost that i do not think you are factoring in.

Off loading paper all of the time from small output trays has a labor cost that I do not think you are factoring in.

These two tasks alone, printing 830,000 prints per month is a full time job ... assuming you can find a reliable person to do it.

Plus order/manage/recycle toner + clear paper jams + clean + install Maintenance kits.

I calculate 8 hours x5 days x $15.00 hour living wage = $600.00 week x 4 = $2,400.00 per month.

$2,400.00 x 60 months = $144,000.00 or you could just be happy and get a new production printer with service contract.

BillyCarpenter
09-30-2021, 06:16 PM
I have 2 HP 9050 from years ago without LCT. This post was half inspired by that experience as they never died or went down. They were a bit slow but I can leave things running overnight. They are tanks and were a bit loud and noisy, doesn't bother me. Do you know if they were using aftermarket toner? I had good luck with $20 toners. I never used it for super big jobs as I didn't buy the LCT. I saw some for sale $100/ea some years ago. I still use one for printing on label stock.


Originally I wanted a more production style machine but starting to contemplate this route. I bought a brand new HP Laserjet enterprise 725F at auction for $100 for my dads bedroom as his KM C353 kept going down that he never used. Not sure if its anything comparable. I think biggest problem will be paper output tray not able to stack so much paper.

https://static.bhphoto.com/images/images500x500/hp_cf067a_bgj_laserjet_enterprise_multi_function_1 493054467_1331603.jpg



Not no, but hell F'n no.

Before you do this, here's what you need to do:


Take all the money you have and put it in a neat plie in the middle of the floor. Then pour some gasoline on it and set it on fire. ;)

wjurls
09-30-2021, 06:23 PM
Try to find 2 off lease Bizhub Press 1250's or 3, 1052's. Good for well beyond 25 million and seem to do better the higher the volume.

Fast, Cheap, Reliable (<--pick 2)

reckless
09-30-2021, 08:17 PM
... you will certainly get exactly what you pay for.... you just might not realize it for awhile. Good luck!


Loading paper all of the time into small paper trays has a labor cost that i do not think you are factoring in.

Off loading paper all of the time from small output trays has a labor cost that I do not think you are factoring in.

These two tasks alone, printing 830,000 prints per month is a full time job ... assuming you can find a reliable person to do it.

Plus order/manage/recycle toner + clear paper jams + clean + install Maintenance kits.

I calculate 8 hours x5 days x $15.00 hour living wage = $600.00 week x 4 = $2,400.00 per month.

$2,400.00 x 60 months = $144,000.00 or you could just be happy and get a new production printer with service contract.


I fully agree, labor is definitely the issue with this idea. Also speed. I do have workers I can have pickup paper every 2 hours but still I prefer if I didn't have to.

D_L_P
09-30-2021, 09:09 PM
... and how much did those HP original toners cost? Well, well above the all inclusive cpc rate of a production copier. I do not think this solution is even close to the lowest TCO which is what is what seems to be this customer's ultimate goal.

Were the toners ever out of stock? With HP in 2021 like many print vendors, likely!

... still an alternate solution.

The chances of finding two used production copiers in the same configuration, delivered, installed, PM'ed for $20k are too small to consider.

This was at a bank and I'm sure they spent a lot on toner. They had a pallet or two of toner, so maybe they're the reason it was hard to get.
Our sales guy could never sell them on one or two production copiers. I'm not sure why. Nobody mentioned costs.
They didn't like the idea of relying on 1 or 2 machines. With 6 they could still print thousands is pages per day if one or two went out of service.

D_L_P
09-30-2021, 09:42 PM
I have 2 HP 9050 from years ago without LCT. This post was half inspired by that experience as they never died or went down. They were a bit slow but I can leave things running overnight. They are tanks and were a bit loud and noisy, doesn't bother me. Do you know if they were using aftermarket toner? I had good luck with $20 toners. I never used it for super big jobs as I didn't buy the LCT. I saw some for sale $100/ea some years ago. I still use one for printing on label stock.


Originally I wanted a more production style machine but starting to contemplate this route. I bought a brand new HP Laserjet enterprise 725F at auction for $100 for my dads bedroom as his KM C353 kept going down that he never used. Not sure if its anything comparable. I think biggest problem will be paper output tray not able to stack so much paper.

https://static.bhphoto.com/images/images500x500/hp_cf067a_bgj_laserjet_enterprise_multi_function_1 493054467_1331603.jpg

They mostly used oem. Being a bank I guess they didn't care about costs.
With 5 of those running constantly while I serviced the sixth it was noisy in that room. Each one had a stacker option too.
Two operators went around loading paper and emptying the stackers all day. In spite of the high volume I'd only get a call every other month or so.

If I were going to get a production printer I would get Canon or a couple HP's. Canon 55 ppm or faster are tanks.

tsbservice
09-30-2021, 10:17 PM
I'm wondering what the bank client has to do with this client.
Nothing in common. Tight budget is limit on this one.

Zesti
10-01-2021, 02:45 PM
What a coincidence....
Yesterday I got an inquiry for a print solution.... 70m prints in 2 months..... I was like WOW....
The solutions so far I have searched are Bizhub Press 2250P and Xerox Nuvera 314, of course multiple units are required. The catch is each sheet to be printed has unique bar code and QR code.... each side..... So any thoughts about it...

KeviM
10-02-2021, 02:07 AM
At that kind of volume you definitely need a press or digital press. Make it 2. And something with good speed.

Forget about not spending money if you doing that volumes of printing. Because of the mechanical and electrical parts that make up any machine (or car) you will need to spend money to maintain it.

Remember it takes money to make money. You may want to keep this cheap but going too cheap now will cost you more later. Lots more.

My advice is look at a good digital press with a good service contract and also read the other comments again. These guys are giving great advice coming from good experience, especially the Konica Minolta press comments

KeviM
10-02-2021, 02:43 AM
Konica Minolta Pro1100. 40 mil life cycle at 110ppm. 1 mil plus a month. Take the maintenance agreement.

Good advice. Go this route

reckless
10-03-2021, 01:47 AM
Why is everyone soo big on the maintenance agreement? It costs more than having full time technician on staff? I have heard of a particular OCE machine (dont know the brand) that never gives any issues.

BillyCarpenter
10-03-2021, 03:34 AM
Why is everyone soo big on the maintenance agreement? It costs more than having full time technician on staff? I have heard of a particular OCE machine (dont know the brand) that never gives any issues.


There's many reasons for purchasing a service agreement.


1. End users don't have access to firmware and updates.

2. If a PWB goes out, it can cost you out the arse.

3. Training your employees to repair a copier seems counter-productive. (Don't they have a full time job already?)

and lastly

4. There's no such thing as a copier (OCE or otherwise) that never has issues.



PS - One last thing. A new copier costs a pretty penny and it can go downhill quickly if it's not serviced by an expert.

reckless
10-03-2021, 06:06 AM
There's many reasons for purchasing a service agreement.


1. End users don't have access to firmware and updates.

2. If a PWB goes out, it can cost you out the arse.

3. Training your employees to repair a copier seems counter-productive. (Don't they have a full time job already?)

and lastly

4. There's no such thing as a copier (OCE or otherwise) that never has issues.



PS - One last thing. A new copier costs a pretty penny and it can go downhill quickly if it's not serviced by an expert.

What is a PWB?

shinchan
10-03-2021, 06:29 AM
What is a PWB?

printed wiring board

aren't most book publishers using offset printing.

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