Couple problems with C652's

[BigDaveE]

Hi all,

We purchased a couple new C652's at the beginning of the year. They're both configured exactly the same -

FS-526 + JS-602 finishers
PK-516 Punch unit
2 x fax kits

Problem #1)
Ever since we've received them and started using them, we've been getting lock-ups/ freezes on both machines.
Touch screen and buttons on the control pad are unresponsive.
Power On/Off button on control pad does nothing (soft power off?)
Units ARE pingable when locked, web interface will not load though.
Sometimes we had the blue data light flashing, but not always.

Only way to "fix" is to do a hard power off & on with the main switch down by the paper drawers.

The lock-ups happen pretty randomly - sometimes three or four times a day, sometimes a couple days go by... So far it has always happened during business hours.

I've had the techs from the company where we bought the units from in so many times that I think we should set up a cubicle for them. They pretty much just scratch their heads.

I had them update it to the new firmware that came out a couple weeks ago and change it function version 3. Plus (of course) I updated the print drivers to the corresponding new version as well.

Still the lock-ups happen.

Any ideas/tips/suggestions? Any experience with this from other C652's?

Problem 2)
The units also generate an error (exclamation mark on screen) saying -
Clean the slit scanner glass located on the far left.

I've cleaned (and had the techs clean) the glass several times and it still comes up.
The techs said they were going to find a way to just turn off the error message, but that sounds like a bad way to deal with it... Why not find the actual cause?

Any ideas on that one?


Thanks in advance!

[big jase]

I'm have same problem as problem 1 but i also have fierys on them was thinking the fiery was to blame not so sure now reading your post, with problem 2 i'm sure you can alter the sensitivity of slit glass detection.when too sensitive can show up error just for paper dust

[Stirton.M]

Uncharacteristic issues like this happening on two machines is incredibly rare at a single location. From an educated point of view, I am going to lean on the power.

These machines MUST have 20 Amp 120 Volt to operate. Each machine MUST be on a dedicated circuit separate from each other and anything else in the office. I cannot stress that enough. These machines are incredibly reliable when installed in an environment customized to their presence. Sharing a circuit with any other device is asking for trouble, even if it is something that doesn't appear to use a lot of power.

Also, there should be a power conditioner device with these units...the power conditioner is a very sophisticated circuit protection device made by ESP ESP USA > Real Power Protection (http://www.realpowerprotection.com/usa/index.php) . Konica Minolta Canada has made it mandatory to sell one of these with every machine. I cannot speak for other countries, but it is highly recommended. The devices ensure that the power is clean and can also filter out transients in the phone and LAN when plugged through the unit. The company that makes these guarantees the equipment on the downstream side. In other words, they pay for the repair/replacement costs if it is damaged while plugged into the device. Very solid and reliable. These devices have solved some of our existing power related issues on older machines, so I stand by them with full endorsement.

That glass issue is an odd one. Is there a code given with it? I cannot find anything in SSD or the service manual specific to that issue.

There are some adjustments that might be needed regarding glass movement. Your techs should have this information in the service manual.

[BigDaveE]

Thanks for the advice Stirton.M - but all of those things are already in place.

I had 20amp dedicated circuits installed (new) for each unit.

They came with the power-conditioners pre-installed / mounted to the back of the units... The exact ESP USA devices you're talking about...

So I don't see how it can be power related...

[Matt25112]

Slow printing or locking up when printing multiple print jobs.
Solution:
When the machine is printing multiple print jobs, the machine will cycle between print jobs. This causes the machine to slow down and if the queue fills up enough, it could lock up the machine.

The reason the machine cycles between print jobs is because the machine is checking which printer language (PCL or PS) the next print job is using. To stop this from happening, you have to tell the machine which PDL to use. To accomplish this, please perform the following:


1. Utility
2. User Settings
3. Printer Settings
4. Basic Settings
5. PDL Settings
6. Choose PS or PCL, depending on what driver is being used.
Note: All computers that are printing to this machine will have to use the same printer language as what the machine has defaulted to (PCL or PS).

[konisolver]

First let me ask:
1. What type of switch are you using i.e Cisco? Do you have timeout session set on the switch to disable the port if not in use for "X" amount of time?
2. What speed is the port set to? Switch the port speed to 10 half duplex and also the copier (when you change the speed of the copier make sure to restart the copier or the settings will not apply)
3. Have you run Wireshark to see if there is a protocol that is causing the unit to lock up?
4. Disable all protocols not in use like SLP,SNMP on copier
5. Run the network cable directly from the wall to the copier
6. Format the HDD and make sure the fax boards are properly seated with the adapter
7. Is the IP reserve on Server? If so release from reserve list and let it pick up an IP from DHCP server then using the DHCP ip address change the port settings on the PC to use the new given IP and start sending print jobs. This wont be a permament solution but you can test the printer with no restrictions.

Hope this helps....

[BigDaveE]

1. It's connected to a Cisco 2960G switch. There is no timeout set - the port is never disabled. I've tried it with both port-fast on and off.
2. First I had it normal - auto-negotiate. Then when I thought it might be a network problem, I set it gigabit, full duplex - both on the switch & bizhub. Then after more lock-ups, I set it to 100Mb, full duplex - both on the switch and the bizhub. Still lock-ups. I haven't tried 10Mb - half yet... That seems drastic...
3. I've used Wireshark (it'll always be Ethereal to me) on other things but not the bizhub. It would be hard to keep it it running/logging all the time, since the lock-ups are so random. The logs it generates are so big, I don't know how I'd manage having it logging non-stop for days... I did run it on some other things in the network for a little while (on the same switch) and haven't seen anything abnormal.
4. Have disabled nearly everything I don't need. Except for snmp - it was off for awhile (and I experienced lock-ups while it was off) but I turned it back on because I discovered it needed snmp on in order for the windows print driver to auto-detect the hardware config...
5. This is what's in place. It connects directly to the switch in the data closet.
6. Again, I don't think the techs formatted the hard-drive, so I might have them try that.
7. It's a static IP.

[BigDaveE]

This gives me a little hope...

Will definitely try this (I use the PCL driver everywhere - so I'll set it to PCL - only)...

Thanks!


Slow printing or locking up when printing multiple print jobs.
Solution:
When the machine is printing multiple print jobs, the machine will cycle between print jobs. This causes the machine to slow down and if the queue fills up enough, it could lock up the machine.

The reason the machine cycles between print jobs is because the machine is checking which printer language (PCL or PS) the next print job is using. To stop this from happening, you have to tell the machine which PDL to use. To accomplish this, please perform the following:


1. Utility
2. User Settings
3. Printer Settings
4. Basic Settings
5. PDL Settings
6. Choose PS or PCL, depending on what driver is being used.
Note: All computers that are printing to this machine will have to use the same printer language as what the machine has defaulted to (PCL or PS).

[konisolver]

Change the speed to 10 half duplex on both the sswitch and copier. Also make sure you are the latest firmware on the cisco switch. For some reason or another this switch is notorious for knocking out the printer offline. If you setup LDAP on the unit you could see how if the unit is inactive for a while it will drop from network. Cisco and Bizhub dont play well with each other.
To keep your wireshard log short you need to only filter the connection from the IP on switch -- IP of server --IP copier this way you dont have a huge log.
Are you running any vlans? voip?
I forgot to mention to put an old (if you have any old 10/100 switch) between the copier and port on your wall. let it run on and see if it drops or locks up

[BigDaveE]

For some reason or another this switch is notorious for knocking out the printer offline. If you setup LDAP on the unit you could see how if the unit is inactive for a while it will drop from network. Cisco and Bizhub dont play well with each other.


Are there any documented cases of this I can reference? Seems like these possible incompatibilities (BizHub <-> Cisco) would've been addressed by now, since Cisco is by far the dominant enterprise switch vendor...

And yes, I run VLans... I have a few on that switch but the BizHub is on a normal access port (not trunk) since it's in the default VLan. I have some VoIP as well, but not on that switch... So no, no QoS on that switch...

[BigDaveE]

Well, unfortunately this didn't help... I had it set up for PCL only, and still had lock-ups first thing this morning...

I'm very close to "lemon law" ing these two units...


This gives me a little hope...

Will definitely try this (I use the PCL driver everywhere - so I'll set it to PCL - only)...

Thanks!

[Albonline]

Hi dave, are these units being serviced by the konica branch in wixom? used to be albin if so call and ask for the shop mention this post.

[BigDaveE]

Well I put a Dell unmanaged switch between the BizHub and cisco switch... I had two of the dell switches so I put one on each BizHub, so same config. Got a lock-up on one within about an hour...

I've had about 7 lock-ups total just today...

I'm just gonna return them... It's not worth it... This is really starting to effect our business and I can't go another two months of trouble-shooting without making one inch of progress...

What do you guys recommend as a replacement? Something that's stable & reliable?

How about Xerox WorkCentre 7346 ???



I forgot to mention to put an old (if you have any old 10/100 switch) between the copier and port on your wall. let it run on and see if it drops or locks up

[BigDaveE]

Yes, they are being serviced by Albin in Wixom (that's also who we bought them through)... That's who's been about about a dozen times (two different techs now)...


Hi dave, are these units being serviced by the konica branch in wixom? used to be albin if so call and ask for the shop mention this post.

[Albonline]

call me we will get this fixed. i should have heard of your issuse. the feild techs are suposedto contact me with ongoing problems they are haveing and ive not been called on this yet.

[sparkin19]

When printing multiple print jobs, jobs will back up in the machines queue causing the machine to print slow or lock up.

Slow printing or locking up when printing multiple print jobs.


When the machine is printing multiple print jobs, the machine will cycle between print jobs. This causes the machine to slow down and if the queue fills up enough, it could lock up the machine.

The reason the machine cycles between print jobs is because the machine is checking which printer language (PCL or PS) the next print job is using. To stop this from happening, you have to tell the machine which PDL to use. To accomplish this, please perform the following:


1. Utility
2. User Settings
3. Printer Settings
4. Basic Settings
5. PDL Settings
6. Choose PS or PCL, depending on what driver is being used.


Note: All computers that are printing to this machine will have to use the same printer language as what the machine has defaulted to (PCL or PS).

[BigDaveE]

Thanks, but I already tried this and it did not solve the problem...


When printing multiple print jobs, jobs will back up in the machines queue causing the machine to print slow or lock up.

Slow printing or locking up when printing multiple print jobs.


When the machine is printing multiple print jobs, the machine will cycle between print jobs. This causes the machine to slow down and if the queue fills up enough, it could lock up the machine.

The reason the machine cycles between print jobs is because the machine is checking which printer language (PCL or PS) the next print job is using. To stop this from happening, you have to tell the machine which PDL to use. To accomplish this, please perform the following:


1. Utility
2. User Settings
3. Printer Settings
4. Basic Settings
5. PDL Settings
6. Choose PS or PCL, depending on what driver is being used.


Note: All computers that are printing to this machine will have to use the same printer language as what the machine has defaulted to (PCL or PS).

[mailderrick]

any updates? this was an interesting one!!

[BigDaveE]

any updates? this was an interesting one!!

Update is that I'm still in the process of trying to return these units... Still getting the lock-ups multiple times per day... They've tried everything (even physically removing the fax boards from the device) and nothing has changed....

Sad part is that all the replacement units I've looked at (Xerox, LexMark, Ricoh, etc.) have worse output quality and are slower... But at least (I hope) they wont' lock-up three or four times a day...

Dave

[mailderrick]

that is a shame..i personally like the look of the konica machine and prints..i like the availability of their parts and they usually run at some of the lower cost per page retailed out.. I hope someone can help you as i would love to hear what solves this.has it ever locked up just doing a copy job? is it always when someone send something to the network?maybe take one off the network..turn off the networrk card and run it and see what happens?

[BigDaveE]

that is a shame..i personally like the look of the konica machine and prints..i like the availability of their parts and they usually run at some of the lower cost per page retailed out.. I hope someone can help you as i would love to hear what solves this.has it ever locked up just doing a copy job? is it always when someone send something to the network?maybe take one off the network..turn off the networrk card and run it and see what happens?

Yes, it is a shame and I agree - I like the look, functionality, cost per page, output quality, etc. I really feel like I'm "downgrading" in moving to another machine...

And nobody would love to know what the actual problem is/was than more than myself... But it's been four and a half months and we're not one inch closer to a solution...

Unplugging it from the network isn't an option as we need to be able to print... The techs have asked the same but I mean, how far can you take it? I mean, I'm sure if I unplug it from the wall or leave it powered off all the time it would "perform" without any problems... ;) But what good does that do. How would you like it if your car was stalling all the time and your mechanic told you to leave it parked in the garage and never drive it and see if it has any problems? ;)

Still would like recommendations on a replacment unit, but it seems nobody likes ANY copier/printer...

[mailderrick]

te reason i suggested that because in many differnt copiers,laser printers etc. when a network card has a problem it can at times cause the machine to lock up. I would want you to leave it plugged in and turned on and use it as a copier if possible. Just for however long it would usually take it to lock up. I am not sure if konica has updated firmware for network cards but it is worth taking a look at . someone on this forum should know if they ever release and update those.....also..try maybe to go through a different port on the machine..buy an external jetdirect and see if that does the trick but find a way to disable the network port to see if you can narrow it down to that

[MR CLEAN OC]

First thing I was thinking was you mentioned the lock up first thing in the morning; make sure your fierys are getting power directly from wall. When machine returns from auto power or sleep mode to normal operation it can lock out the controller and lock up machine waiting for it to boot. I have seen this cause many issues. Also turn off split line detection the current firmware is too sensitive, WE should see it corrected in later firmware!

[BigDaveE]

1) I don't think I can use a JetDirect box without losing almost all functionality (user authentication, stapling, etc.)

2) These don't have fiery controllers.... Just the basic/standard controller. They don't lock-up first thing in the morning... It's randomly throughout the day (but always during business hours).

[SmellsHot]

I'm not sure if you've answered this or not, but are these networked through a server or our they locally installed on the pcs?
And has the tech been able to recreate the issue? I hate to see this problem go unresolved.........
I would make the branch bring you in a loaner for one of the machines and see if they can recreate the issue with a crossover cable and a laptop.....
I hope they get this resolved........BigDaveE

[BigDaveE]

They've offered to swap in a loaner but I don't see what good it would do. If it was only one of the machines that was having a problem I could see the benefit... But both are doing the same thing... So in my opinion there'a 99.9% probability that any other C652 will do the same thing (once it's onsite here).

And plugging in a notebook with a crossover cable isn't effective either... We're sending hundreds of jobs a day to it from who knows how many applications and sources. They can't simulate our environment on a notebook...
It goes back to the other suggestion of unplugging it from the network... I'm sure it'll work if you completely remove it from the environment (which is what disconnecting it does). Besides, we need these devices to do business - we can't just deactivate or disable them for a significant amount of time...




I'm not sure if you've answered this or not, but are these networked through a server or our they locally installed on the pcs?
And has the tech been able to recreate the issue? I hate to see this problem go unresolved.........
I would make the branch bring you in a loaner for one of the machines and see if they can recreate the issue with a crossover cable and a laptop.....
I hope they get this resolved........BigDaveE

[ineo+6501]

I had a similar problem to this on a C550 a few months ago. It was a networked and heavily used machine with print jobs just like yours.

Turned out to be the "Low Power Mode" and "Sleep Mode". It was set to the default which I think is 15 mins.
If the machine received a print job at the same split second it tried to enter "Low Power Mode", it hung up.

Sounds like it could be the same issue with you. No print jobs overnight = no hang ups, the machine can enter "Low Power Mode" unmolested which maybe why it only happens during working hours.

Try altering the settings to the maximum which is 240 mins I think?. Both can be found in Administrator settings in Utility/Counter.

Hope this helps.

[BigDaveE]

I wish it was that easy... It does not go into sleep mode during the day... I have it set for low power mode after 90 minutes and I STRONGLY doubt we ever go an hour and a half without a print job... Sleep mode is set to 240 minutes...


I had a similar problem to this on a C550 a few months ago. It was a networked and heavily used machine with print jobs just like yours.

Turned out to be the "Low Power Mode" and "Sleep Mode". It was set to the default which I think is 15 mins.
If the machine received a print job at the same split second it tried to enter "Low Power Mode", it hung up.

Sounds like it could be the same issue with you. No print jobs overnight = no hang ups, the machine can enter "Low Power Mode" unmolested which maybe why it only happens during working hours.

Try altering the settings to the maximum which is 240 mins I think?. Both can be found in Administrator settings in Utility/Counter.

Hope this helps.

[Matt25112]

"How would you like it if your car was stalling all the time and your mechanic told you to leave it parked in the garage and never drive it and see if it has any problems?"

Nice ;-)

[BIG PAPA]

Wow, This post is generating some excitment isnt it. First thought is that you are already admitting that it is something specific to YOUR environmenet, but you are not letting the techs run through the process. Second the comment of who knows how many applications and sources??? Your IT dept should pretty much know this. Also when it "locks up" Is the machine completly unresponsive, or does it just quit outputting? Can it be accessed via PSWC? What is in the print que at the time? You are quick to ask for advice, but then quicker to shoot everyone down, without giving a hole lot of details.

[Albonline]

"How would you like it if your car was stalling all the time and your mechanic told you to leave it parked in the garage and never drive it and see if it has any problems?"

Nice ;-) but in the meantime you neglected to tell the mechanic that you are trying to run the car on kerosene.

[SmellsHot]

Hey "Albonline" did you ever get a phone call from these technicians like you posted earlier? Just wondering if you have been contacted to check it out or not. The more I hear, the more it sounds like a network issue......

[BigDaveE]

First off - I really do appreicate any and all help and the suggestions people are giving.

Second, I've already given the details in my very first post that you are asking for, but I'll repeat:

When they lock they are completely unresponsive - the buttons on the unit do nothing but beep - even the soft power off button does nothing.
When they lock you can NOT access the web interface (by going to the ip address in a web browser). It never loads anything. But they do respond to ping.

I'm the IT Manager and I know what applications our users are printing from. What I meant is that it's impossible for us to know what is "in" all their print jobs, they print from excel but I don't know what is "in" every excel print job.

They all print through one print server (Windows 2008 x64 with the latest driver) - there are no local pc connections.

Standard apps like MS Office, Lotus Notes, Adobe Acrobat, Internet Explorer. Nothing fancy.

As far as print queue's... sometimes nothing is in the print queue when they lock. Sometimes a basic MS word file or something or other. But as soon as we do a hard power down and it comes back up, what's in the queue prints out fine. they've never locked immediately back-to-back with the same print job.

It's hard for me to take that I'm not letting techs go through their process because you have no idea how many hours they've been on-site and how many different things they've tried or had me try... It's been ove rfour months of them doing their process...



Wow, This post is generating some excitment isnt it. First thought is that you are already admitting that it is something specific to YOUR environmenet, but you are not letting the techs run through the process. Second the comment of who knows how many applications and sources??? Your IT dept should pretty much know this. Also when it "locks up" Is the machine completly unresponsive, or does it just quit outputting? Can it be accessed via PSWC? What is in the print que at the time? You are quick to ask for advice, but then quicker to shoot everyone down, without giving a hole lot of details.

[BigDaveE]

This isn't fair... I've talked to you on the phone multiple times now, you're office is about a quarter mile away, and you're more than welcome to stop by anytime and point out what is unique or different about our environment, network, setup, w/e, that you think we're doing so incorrectly to make the systems lock. We've had dozens of HP printers and two Canon imagerunners in the same exact network environment, receiving and printer the same type of print jobs from the same applications and we had no problems.


but in the meantime you neglected to tell the mechanic that you are trying to run the car on kerosene.

[Mr Spock]

First I am not trying to add fuel to the fire but offer another suggestion. There is a bulletin that describes how to capture the system logs. These may help the ssd helpdesk determine the issue. The bulletin number is TAUS1000300EN00. I do not know if this will help in this instance but it may be worth a shot. They (service provider) does have an open ticket with ssd I hope.

[pepper38_cnd]

Try disabling the Auto Acquire in the driver once the machine is set up what is the purpose of constantly checking the configuration? It's not going to change. Disable "Direct SMB Hosting" as this creates a lot of unnecessary network traffic, and disable sleep mode. The other thing I would try if possible, remove the fax from one machine for a day and see if the lockups stop on that machine. If that doesn't work get Konica Minolta tech support on site along with the Dealer rep and directly involved I'm sure there must be an open ticket on this.

[BigDaveE]

All of these have been done already... I'm still running one of the machines with no fax boards attached... They do not aquire settings automatically anymore.. Direct SMB Hosting is disabled.

These were suggested already and honestly I've been trying everything suggested in this thread...

Thanks for trying to help though. I appreciate it.


Try disabling the Auto Acquire in the driver once the machine is set up what is the purpose of constantly checking the configuration? It's not going to change. Disable "Direct SMB Hosting" as this creates a lot of unnecessary network traffic, and disable sleep mode. The other thing I would try if possible, remove the fax from one machine for a day and see if the lockups stop on that machine. If that doesn't work get Konica Minolta tech support on site along with the Dealer rep and directly involved I'm sure there must be an open ticket on this.

[BIG PAPA]

Ok. dont think this has been answered. Konica Minolta Tech Support has been onsite? So by that you mean the DSM? Or the regional color specalist? What did they say? You mentioned the fact of having used HP's before, did ALL the HP software get uninstalled? Have seen where HP(as well as other vendors) used port monitoring software. Sometimes this has been known to interfere with other devices. Just a thought, I know it would be some work but have you tried changing the IP addresses? maybe to a different network segment? When they go unresponsive, and I know it sounds basic but please humor me, unplug the network cable and try pinging again. You said they do respond to ping but you cant access them, could it be possible something else has been installed that is trying to take the IP address?

[RRodgers]

We had 4 650's lock up when they all had the finger reader on them. We ended up pulling those. No more problems. But I take it you don't have those installed.

[BigDaveE]

Just a few techs from Albon - the company we bought them through - have been onsite (many times). Albononline (who has posted a few times in this thread) works there, although he personally has not been onsite.
They say they have the case opened and have talked to KM techs directly but I have no way to verify that (nor any reason to think they haven't).

Multiple times it has locked up WHILE the techs were onsite and all of them have seen it happen right in front of them.

We didn't run any HP (or canon) printer software... It was just standard print server output.

And yes, I have done a complete reload from scratch on my Windows print server.

I have tried connecting them to different network switches (as recommended in a post on this thread). I guess I can try putting them in a different vlan / subnet (and therefore ip address). Might configure that this weekend.

I have verified that they don't have duplicate IP's (first I verified by just unplugging them and making sure nothing responded to ping - then I double-checked by doing an IT audit to account for all network devices & ip's).

Thanks for suggestions...


Ok. dont think this has been answered. Konica Minolta Tech Support has been onsite? So by that you mean the DSM? Or the regional color specalist? What did they say? You mentioned the fact of having used HP's before, did ALL the HP software get uninstalled? Have seen where HP(as well as other vendors) used port monitoring software. Sometimes this has been known to interfere with other devices. Just a thought, I know it would be some work but have you tried changing the IP addresses? maybe to a different network segment? When they go unresponsive, and I know it sounds basic but please humor me, unplug the network cable and try pinging again. You said they do respond to ping but you cant access them, could it be possible something else has been installed that is trying to take the IP address?

[BigDaveE]

We had 4 650's lock up when they all had the finger reader on them. We ended up pulling those. No more problems. But I take it you don't have those installed.

Nope, no fingerprint readers...